Hartley Flareline 16 project

Discussion in 'Wooden Boat Building and Restoration' started by djaus, Jul 12, 2013.

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  1. djaus
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    djaus Salted Nut!

    I appreciate all the advice folks, even if they conflict but it's all for the greater good isn't it. I agree that coating the inside with resin would be a waste of time. Would be impossible to coat every surface on every bit of wood so I'm not going to bother. A decent clean, sand & coat of marine paint would do- as a stubborn dutchman I'm all about saving time & money but not taking the easy, corner cutting route! Let it be known that, what I think is the original coating inside (light blue), has been done to a high standard & has protected the hardwood almost 100%. The ply that is soft is: *cockpit only*-frame brace's x2 on top of the hog, transom storage compartments, aft deck plus the few inches of hull plate adjoining the transom) & 1 or 2 bits of hardwood in the transom itself...that's it. The fungi was formed in some rotten ply only (no hardwood) & only left a slippery surface & possibly a bit of discoloration on some hardwood. The most recent coat of paint was put on the outside of the cabin & deck, the hull & on the cockpit cabin walls & sheer plate. This coat was probably house paint by the looks of it, flaking so bad that it won't take much to remove, sand & paint again. The outer hull is glassed & will need to be given a coat of resin or a similar product as the paint has bubbled & peeled (poor prep' no doubt) & there's 1 piece of fibreglass that has come away from the hull, roughly the size of my palm. Looks as though there's still glass under it against the ply hull skin so it may be a previous patch job gone bad! ***I will photograph ALL these things & post it up soon as the weather clears & I can rip the tarp off***. I wanna get the boat off trailer & onto tyres too so I can assess it's "repair-ability" (The trailer). You kid's play nice while I'm gone now! LOL :D
     
  2. djaus
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    djaus Salted Nut!

    Oh', & there are rub strips on the hull plus a long strip of alloy or stainless that runs from halfway down the stem all the way to transom. The rub strips have separated slightly from the hull so there's a tell tale crack in the paint. Not sure how serious a problem that is.
     
  3. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    PAR
    OK, well, I'm not an expert, so am happy to be corrected...and I take your point about washing with water or mild acid like vinegar prior to sanding.

    As you say, the washing removes the blush and the light sanding provides the 'key' for the next coat.

    And of course if you can use peel ply or some other form of fabric (but not plastic) this generally means the amine blushing will occur on the surface of the peel ply, so once it's removed you could - theoreticaly - recoat without washing or sanding. Personally, I would still wash and sand lightly, just to be sure, if recoating.

    If you were not recoating, plastic would be ok, if all you're after is a smooth finish that doesn't require sanding, but the key to the peel ply in this case is that it is not impervious (like plastic) and so the surface to air interaction takes place above the peel ply layer, wher ethe CO2 and moisture in the air react with the amines.

    Not sure I agree about the screws thru the rubbing strips. Even if you left them exposed, or simply painted, epoxy bonding to the hull surface will likely be stronger than the timber itself, so it will tend to split off, rather than tear the hull.

    No matter what you coat the strips with, if there are screws there, water can penetrate the hull via capillary attraction and be invisible until its done major damage.

    You're right of course in what you say about the amines, but the non-amine epoxies are not readily available for the backyard boatbuilder, nor is a 'climate-controlled shop'. Allowing the mixed epoxy to breathe can slow and reduce the amine blush, but it also reduces the use time. Other tricks are adjusting the proportions of the varios reagents, especially those in the hardener, but this is again not something that can be done in a backyard shed.

    Caertainly, when using epoxy one should endeavour to do so on a warm-ish day and in dry-ish conditions - NOT on a cool, wet day, as this will encourage blush for sure.

    Even WEST advises to treat all epoxy applications as though they had blush, even if you can't see it (see attached). So if the acknowledged experts in the field think that's the best advice, it should be good enough for most people.

    I agree about the trapping of water under glass tapes on the rubbing strips.

    Perhaps I didn't make my point clear enough - the tape was intended to be used on the outer surface only, as a further abrasion resistance for light groundings on beaches etc, not wrapped right round and onto the hull surface. I agree, that would be asking for trouble if the strips riped off in a grounding incident. Proably take great chunks of hull surface with them.

    It would probably make sense to glue the strips on with a fairly weak paste, thinned out with fairing powder to reduce its efficacy somewhat. They have to be treated as 'sacrificial' rather than permanent additions.

    I understand what you're saying about the two-pack PU being harder (and more expensive) than a single pack or modified alkyd, but frankly my Hartley is stiff as the proverbial - a light hammer blow bounces off, and I cannot compress the hull sheeting anywhere......

    That's not to say it might not flex under heavy pounding, but I still think I'd rather use modern marine-grade two-pack from someone like IM or Hempel.

    If it was only for a knockabout fishing boat, being kept afloat on a budget, and not left in the water permanently....well, maybe the single-pack or alkyd would be a budget option. Horses for courses.

    We'll have to agree to disagree on the epoxy coating though. From what I've seen and read, even coating the raw wood with epoxy is better than simply painting it, [rovides additional protection and requires less intermediate maintenance. The paint (or varnish) is there to provide UV protection primarily, which epoxy lacks.

    Having said that, I'd like to see someone do a long terms study of the effect of glycol-infused borates coated with either alkyd or single-pack urethane as surface coating....

    Hmmmm....I feel an experiment coming on... :)
     

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  4. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Buzz, we agree on most things and there's always more than one approach to issues.

    Epoxy coated surfaces can be more durable under paint or varnish, but only if the coating is maintained. The case with most home builts is, they don't get the care they need, so the coating breaches lead to more damage, then an non-epoxy undercoat. If you wait a year to fix scratches and dings on just a painted surface, you only need to sand it back, feathering the edges, prime and paint again, possibly over some filler. With an epoxy undercoat, you probably have some localized rot, barbecue the wood could drain out the moisture at the same rate as just a painted surface, so the repair is more extensive. This is true of any epoxy coated (including encapsulated) surface.

    Maybe in Australia there's no non-amine formulations, but here we have several to pick from including two forum members with formulation businesses.

    As to rub strips, yep, a light sheath on the bottom of rub strip will help a little, again I'd prefer a bedded metal or plastic form of extra abrasion protection in these locations. We're in agreement these are sacrificial in nature and need to be treated as such, so a weak bond, light fasteners and bedding, a coin flip maybe. I think drilling out a shallow hole and gluing in a plug is a lot easier then smoothing the length of a ripped out bonded contact patch.

    I also tell folks to just assume there will be blush, because most shops just don't have the controls in place to insure there isn't any. This is the safe bet on home builts and insures a good tooth. Vinegar isn't necessary on amine blushes, which is water soluble. A mild soap is all you need and light washing. I usually kill two birds with one stone and scuff the surface at the same time. Plastic sheeting does prevent a blush, by sealing the surface from an epoxy/atmosphere interface, though the surface will need to be toothed. Rip stop works because it stops enough of the moisture vapor contact in this interface. In really humid or rainy conditions, you might get a blush even with rip stop, but epoxying in the rain isn't the best approach in the first place. A few years ago, I installed A/C in the shop and have eliminated most of these issues, but few have this luxury.
     
  5. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    LOL...A/C in the shop...???

    Such decadence!!

    I agree with the notion that metal or plastic strips added to such rubbing strips makes for longer lived rubbing strips.

    Alas for the "proper" maintenance of wooden boats..! It appears that these days most people prefer the utility of unpainted aluminium or unpainted gelcoated fibreglass to anything made of a less maintenance-free nature.

    It is true that maintenance needs to be kept up on wooden boats, and the owners vigilant in repairing the smallest of injuries lest it become something more serious.

    I believe the poor reputation obtained by marine ply boats has more to do with laziness and lack of attention to detailed maintenance than anything inherently wrong with the materialks of construction and coatings.

    One does not "adopt" a wooden boat lightly, and fortunately these days most who do so are content to 'potter' and do such things as are necessary from the joy of doing them, rather than from sheer economic necessity, as was most often the case in the days of wooden commercial ships.

    Even steel-hulled vessels require maintenance, almost as regularly as wooden boats, for the same reason - any breaches in the protective coatings can lead catastrophically to failure, eventually, if the incipient rust is not removed.
     
  6. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Yeah, I'm a pig.

    No more true a statement could be made.
     
  7. djaus
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    djaus Salted Nut!

    This is a Hartley flareline isn't it?

    .Had some nice weather today & shot some video before & after the clean up of the interior. Getting the vid's organised now, I'll put up a youtube link soon (takes a while with 30 odd minutes of vid') . Plus I'm looking at a trailer (for purchase) in the morning so watch this space. In the mean time I'm wondering about the rub strips on the hull. I'm thinking I should glass over them then coat the whole hull with resin again to guarantee no leaks (outer hull is already glassed), the boat will never be beached & as stated there's a long strip of alloy on the stem & keel so I'm thinking I should just run some resin to the edge of the strip. Your thought's....
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
  8. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    Yeah, I think the consensus is NOT to glass the strips to the hull, but if they are already attached and part of original construction they are probably glued and screwed, which was the way it was done then.

    So maybe just get some ally strips and glue and/or screw them to the rubbing strips.

    Or, as said previously, glass tape the top surface of the strips but *NOT* the sides - just paint with epoxy on the sides.

    This way you get the extra abrasion resistance of the glass layer, but the strips (hopefully) won't tear a chunk out of the hull if they ever get ripped off.

    It's not just about beaching - it's the wear and tear getting it on and off the trailer, too.

    As you've already got ally strips on the keel, it would match if you added more ally strips to the rubbing strips. This would be 'consistent' with design philosophy and would not look ugly....or wrong.

    Personally, I'd just glue them on using epoxy.....temporarily stick them in place with masking tape or similar and remove once the epoxy goes off. But if adding screws makes you feel 'better' knock yourself out.

    If the outer coating on the hull is painted (guessing it is) then the epoxy coat (if there is one) underneath it is probably OK, so it would make sense just to repaint the surface coating.

    Epoxy sticks good to paint, but if the paint is not stuck perfectly to the wood (or epoxy) underneath, differential expansion can cause cracking which lets in water and causes the outer surface to peel or flake.

    OK, that's WORST case scenario, but as PAR (sort of) says, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

    Just lightly sand back the paint and recoat with a good quality alkyd (enamel) or single pack PU.

    If the surface is poor - say, lots of 'crows feet' cracking, it would pay to just give it a light skim coat of epoxy fairing compound [epoxy with microballoons] to fill these tiny cracks, as this is easier to sand than the straight epoxy.

    So lightly sand to scuff the surface; then skim coat with epoxy filler; wash with soapy water and a green scourer pad to remove any bloom; lightly sand; then recoat with good quality alkyd or single-pack PU paint.

    That's what I'd do, anyway.....all advice readily ignorable.... :)
     
  9. djaus
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    djaus Salted Nut!

    I think I'll just fill the cracks and paint rub strips. The hull has a few tiny nic's in the fibreglass from the broken (missing) roller & timber is visible. Plus there's a few spots where the fibreglass or maybe just some resin has peeled away from the hull, but still firmly attached! Should I try to glue & compress it against the hull or just cut it off & recoat with resin on that area?
     
  10. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    If you're going to add a 'glass "foot" to the strips, 'glass isn't the best choice - Xynole is and about 6 times as abrasion resistant as E 'glass. Next on the list is Dynel, which is about half as good as Xynole, though similar in price.

    In an ideal situation, you'd "sheath" (add fabric) to the hull proper, then apply the rub strips. In this case, I'd opt for a light bonding technique, as Buzz and I have been hashing about. I'd use an aggressive sealant/adhesive, like 3M 4000 or Silflex 291. They'll hold well enough, but no hull breaches and can be removed with a hot knife later is necessary, without dinging up the hull sheathing, plus no fastener holes.

    Usually when sheathings are peeling, it's polyester over wood or crappy polyester repairs over something. It's pretty rare to see an epoxy sheath do that (though it can). Bad prep as Buzz mentioned is the likely culprit, so pull it off and put on something you know will stay stuck. Trying to reattach it, will just make you cuss a lot at the end of the next season, when it's peeling off again.
     
  11. LP
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    LP Flying Boatman

    OK...That's it! Where do I send my resume? :D
     
  12. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Get over it, I've seen your work and you don't need any help from me, even if it is milling up 100's of feet of strips on the table saw, under an 8"x8" duct blowing 55 degree air at 40% humidity, down your neck. Yeah, we got it tough down her in sunny Florida.
     
  13. djaus
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    djaus Salted Nut!

    I won't be adding a 'foot' to the rub strips, I'll just seal the joints & paint. Also I found a product in a local garden/hardware shop, It's called Borax. Consists of 11% Boron present as sodium Borate. Can this stuff be used with the glycol liquid to paint on the inner hull?
     
  14. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    dj
    If there are areas where the underneath coating is peeling away, it means the bond or key has failed, probably due to moisture. Glueing it back down is not advisable.

    If the wood is now dry, I'd recommend peeling off the loose sections until you get to a bit that is still firmly bonded; recoat over the timber with epoxy; wash with water and green scotchbrite scourer (preferably a used one); fill with epoxy based filler to surface level (to mak eup for years and years of paint layers thickness - if required); undercoat; topcoat.

    Borax, as you'ce described, is not the right product. Look back thru posts to where I described the chemical compond - it's very specific Disodium Octaborate Tetrahydrate.

    Double-check the product's MSDS (usually available by asking or off their website) and if it doesn't say that *exactly* then it's not the right stuff.
     

  15. djaus
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    djaus Salted Nut!

    I figured it wasn't the correct product but doesn't hurt to ask. The sales rep's reaction when I asked for DOT by it's full name was priceless! I just added that today was "Big word day"! As for the peeling resin, there's still resin under the bit that has lifted. Why it's lifted is any ones guess but I'm not overly concerned. I won't attempt to glue it back. Thanks
     
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