Hartley Flareline 16 project

Discussion in 'Wooden Boat Building and Restoration' started by djaus, Jul 12, 2013.

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  1. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Dirk, the water pump impeller is considered a "consumable" item, much like an oil filter. It's used and discarded annually or more often, depending on use. The impeller should be replaced every year, regardless of use, even if the engine is just stored. This is because the rubber can take a "set" and it'll just not work, even if new, but has sat in the impeller housing for a year.

    Because you've started it several times, it's very likely the impeller has self destructed (common). You'll need to get all the little pieces of impeller vanes out of the water jackets and passageways, before the engine can be considered reliable. A shop vac is a good tool for this, as is back flushing the opposite way it normally flows.

    The stringers you mention usually will only need a bevel (cut or molded) so it'll drain moisture at the lowest point of their sweep. This is usually just aft of midship. There's no need to fillet them their full length. Gravity always pulls in the same direction, so accumulated water on a stringer top will roll down to the low point and if possible (a fillet or bevel) can drop off around midship.
     
  2. djaus
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    djaus Salted Nut!

    I have the boat stored outside at the moment so it's got a big tarp over the lot down to trailer level. When the weather clears & I've got a few sunny days to play with I'm going to give the cabin & cockpit a darn good clean. There's a layer of dust & scum inside & has a few slippery spots, plus fungi started to grow under rotting ply in a few spots. There's also paints flakes everywhere. So what I'll do is shoot some video after the hose out so you folks can see exactly what I'm referring to regarding the stringers (pics above give a slight indication). To describe them: they are strips of hardwood roughly 1" wide by a half inch thick & run from the stem to transom about 6" apart from the hog - up to the bottom edge of the sheer & then same up to the gunnel. Water has a tendency to stay on the high side as the stringers have 90 degree corners. I have drawn a crude pic' that shows the stringer layout. Personally I think it would be easier just back filling the high side of the lower stringers with resin, both for aiding drainage & adding strength. The stringer on top right (black arrow)has been beveled to allow water to drain. That what you mean?
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
  3. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Yeah winter sucks. When I put in stringers (yep, that's what they're called) I notch little weep holes in their bottom, at the low point in the hull, so they can drain. This weakens them, so the dimensions need to be slightly bigger. In your case, you can fillet the low spots to some degree, but you'll use a lot goo and filler. Maybe a triangular wooden filler, glued and faired down to make the transition over the stringer possible. In reality, this isn't as big an issue as you might think, because underway the collected water will drain aft, where it can be pumped out or pass though scuppers. Also, on a boat like that, you'd store on the trailer with the bow way up in the air, again, so the water can drain aft and out some scuppers or a transom drain. This is very common to see on a 16' powerboat (bow up on the trailer). Just crank up the trailer jack until it can drain out aft.
     
  4. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    I tend to agree with PAR about the water sliding towards the back of the boat, and it is important to have the bow skywards when parked up.

    The problem is that fresh water is much more dangersous for pyl boats than salt, and condensation, which often forms on the isnide of the hull sides and runs down, can pool against the stringers even when the boat is not in use.

    the slightest break or crack oin the waterproofing can allow the water to penetrate and this encoiurages microbial growth, which destroys the wood, stringer or ply.

    Another option might be to "top" the stringers with a thin piece of timber, say 1/4" thick to add strength, but before doing so, add in some notches right through the wxisting stringer to enable water to pool towards the keel.

    This could also be done, if thie above is not practicable, by cutting the notches and than laying a strip of fairly heavy gsm 'glass over it and epoxy.

    Even if you only put a couple of notches in the stringers right at the transom, you should do so to enable the water to drain easily to the drain plug when the boat is parked up.

    It's relatively easy then to bridge the notches cut in the stringers - in order to resotre lost strength, but using vertical gussets from the top of the stringer to the inside face of the transom.

    The latter is a good idea anyway, as this helps to resist the transom-twisting effect of a large outboard hanging off it.

    But if you really want to go to the troubdle of mixing up buckets of epoxy and fairing in the top sides of the stringers, it would do no harm. Just rather a lot of perhaps unecessary work.
     
  5. djaus
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    djaus Salted Nut!

    Great suggestions, thanks guys. I think it would be easier to top the stringers after notching a slit into them. I've toyed with the idea of coating the interior with a resin or similar so there's less to worry about in the future. So advice please, considering everything inside has been coated in paint... (new layers are crap paint & is flaking but the original light blue is quality marine paint I believe)... after a good sanding what's the easiest way to seal the woodwork again. Bearing in mind I have a compressor & spray gun & I'm also handy with brush & roller. Plus what product would be recommended. In theory the I'd like to seal the interior then paint it again.
     
  6. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Don't waste you time with trying to coat the insides with epoxy. Because you can't "encapsulate" each piece (without a complete disassemble), you'll just make things worse. The best thing you can do is provide weeps, though these aren't necessary if the boat is dry stored properly, and paint the inside, after you get her cleaned up. Besides, you'll save a bunch of money, time and goo factor, by skipping the epoxy.

    If the paint is in good shape, it doesn't need to be knocked back to raw wood again. Just remove the loose, flaking and poorly adhered stuff, feather the surrounding areas, prime where you need to and repaint. You can make a career out of it, or just do what needs to be done and go boating.
     
  7. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    Dirk
    Another point I was going to raise..... You said you had some mould issues and/or fungal attack..??

    Pretty much the best way to deal with this is boron, in the form of Disodium Octaborate Tetrahydrate (DOT), which is a renowned anti-fungal and anti-microbial protection for timber.

    It's usually sold as a white powder, but can be sold as a liquid, suspended in water.

    If you already have some mould or fungal attack in the boats timbers, it would, however, be better to mix it with propylene glycol, which is hygrospic (attracts water molecules), and thus 'sucks' into the timber better than water, as the water can't displace water already there.

    NB: Do NOT use ethylene glycol, which is toxic. Polypropylene glycol is not cheap, but about $50/5L from industrial chemical suppliers. Google it.

    Once the solution has been allowed to dry, the moisture it attracts will have been removed form the timber, leaving the boron salts behind, providing deep-seated fungal and anti-rot protection.

    Raw timber so treated has been left in the open without appreciable rot or weathering for many many years.

    There is a mob in Brisbane that imports a product made by US Boron, and rebrands it as Mabon's Pestbor. That's the only Oz supplier of the correct product that I've found. NB: It *HAS* to be DOT, not any other compound of boron..!!

    Protected by an epoxy coating and paint it should (theoretically) last indefinitely.

    The inside of the boat with the crappy paint is a bummer, as it probably means it has no epoxy or other waterproof coating directly on the timber, but even if it did, you'd need to sand, strip or blast off the paint on top before re-coating, as the "key" would only be as good as the surface to which it is adhering.

    So if you *really* want to make it thoroughly waterproof, soda-blast the paint and other coatings off to get raw timber. Then sand and apply epoxy resin (Botecote or similar), which can be brushed or rolled on, then sand lightly, do another coat, sand again, then paint.

    The reason epoxy has to be sanded is that it suffers from 'bloom' - a chemical reaction which is dependent on the make-up of the epoxy and the moisture in the air but it ends up with a slippery surface that can't be re-coated until it's been sanded.

    Anyone who says otherwise is kidding only themselves. Bloom can ONLY be prevented by using peel ply, which is not an option for existing frames and working around the inside of an existing hull.

    Or, if that sounds like too much work, and the old paint looks like it's protecting the timber okay (even if it looks crappy) then simply sand it and recoat it with a two-pack marine paint like International Marine, or Hempel.

    Wattyl does a good one which is relatively cheap, but not easy to find - usually need to call their industrial division to find a supplier.

    If the surface of the paint is badly cracked, use epoxy and microballoon filler - fairing filler - to fill the small cracks, then sand until you get a good smooth surface for the new paint.

    EDIT: I agree with PAR - waste of time epoxy coating the interior - to much work, too much time, too much sanding. But after careful and soul-searching effort I have reluctantly decided (due to the added cost) that the only way I can get the crappy paint off the outside of my hull is by soda blasting (as stripping is not an option, and it's already been sanded down to the screwheads by the previous F-wit owner who left the divots in the hull.
    I *definitely* want the outside of the hull protected with epoxy, and in order for it to be effective it has to key to raw timber, as otherwise the heating/cooling of immersion/exposure can create differential expansion which cracks the paint OR the epoxy OR both, allowing water to be wicked in via capillary attraction.
    Don't skimp on the outer surface..!!

    EDIT 2: One other point about the propylene glycol/DOT mix is that it *should* penetrate all forms of paint except polyurethane, so if the paint inside the hul is not two pack, it would probably be a good idea to soak/paint the inside of the hull as well as the outside, thus getting as much borate into the hull timbers as possible. Do it after sanding.
    If the boarte leaves a light powdery film after it drys, wash off with water or wipe away with acetone before recoating with new paint/epoxy.
     
  8. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    I wonder if wood rot proceeds as rapidly in cold climates, compared to say, the tropics, where mould and mildew grows apace. Also, as has been pointed out, fresh water encourages rot more than salt water, is there anything to be be gained by throwing salt into damp internal areas to draw out water, and kill spores ?
     
  9. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    Well, the advice on borate treatments I got from a Canadian forestry publication...so guess it's not "tropical climate specific"..... ;)

    Placing ordinary salt on the wood surface would not be helpful as salt is hygroscopic, drawing and holding moisture, which would then sit against the timber. And you couldn't vaccuum it out unless it was dry-ish..so no point.

    The advantage of the polypropylene glycol (also hygroscopic) is that it is in and of itself a wood preservative, so you get a double-whammy using it as the suspension liquid for the borate powder.

    Diffusion is the chemical property that causes the borate to continue wicking into the timber even after the surface dries out.

    Moist salt would just sit against the timber allowing rot to develop, admittedly MUCH more slowly than in fresh water.

    According to the Canadian info I found, it's perfectly feasible to add boarate solution (in water..!!) to timber with 12% moisture content and below, and it still 'sucks' its way into the timber.

    Obviously, the drier the better as the differential potential is greater so it happens faster, and coating the timber afterwards prevents the borate leaching out the other way, as diffusion can occur in both directions..!

    Coating it or painting it slows this dramatically.
     
  10. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I'll repeat, an epoxy coating that doesn't fully encapsulate the boat part, is a recipe for disaster. The only way epoxy is effective as a coating is encapsulation. If you just lather it on, but haven't encapsulated the parts, moisture will get in, but have limited avenues of escape, which is just a great way to kill wood quickly. Painting surfaces with epoxy, doesn't seal them, encapsulation does, which require the individual pieces be coated (10+ mils) on all sides, all notches, cutouts, fastener holes, everything. If you can't do this, like on an existing structure, you're just painting the surface with a really expensive goo that will trap moisture inside the wood.

    BoatCote is a good product and I've several client s and friends that have nothing but good reports about it. Using as paint on the outside of a boat doesn't offer much protection. It's scratch, crack and let in moisture in no time. This said abrasion protection can use an epoxy coating, but with a fabric reinforcement such as 'glass, polyacrylic or polyester.

    Lastly, not all epoxies blush (bloom). Non-blushing formulations are available and it's a good idea for the novice to find these. I'm not sure without looking it up, but I think BoatCote has a non-blush formulation.

    When it comes to rot or other thing that infest wood, usually all you have to do is rob the little beasties of one of the three things they need to survive. Moisture, food and environment (lamentation) are the usual suspects and moisture and environment are the easiest to take on. A well ventilated boat doesn't rot. An encapsulated boat doesn't rot. I usually use these approach as opposed to poisons, which can sometimes conflict with coatings that will go over them.

    Lastly, rent a tile floor steam cleaner and use this on every surface in the boat. It'll kill spores, loosen paint and sanitize surfaces. When dry, you can go about finishing with few worries and a lot less paint to scrape off.
     
  11. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    Sorry, PAR, don't agree about the non-blushing epoxies.

    According to a chemist whose work I've studied, the actual chemistry of the mixture that is in the formulation makes bloom unavoidable. If it doesn't 'bloom' the reaction has not taken place.

    Some epoxies bloom 'less' but a 'no bloom' epoxy is a nonsense from a chemistry perspective.

    If the atmosphere and humidity can be micro-controlled, you may be able to induce epoxy bonding without bloom.....big "if". Probably need an airtight box as big as the boat.

    Agree with the notion of encapsulation, but as it isn't possibly in a built boat, having an epoxy "painted" coating is better than paint alone.

    As I said, at least two coats of painted on epoxy is desirable, and I concur, fibreglass reinforcing to improve abrasion resistance is desirable.

    But a PITA as you have to fair the boat completely.

    If you have to do that anyway, then adding a 220gsm fabric is helpful.

    Another good trick to reduce abrasion is to epoxy onto the underside several longitudinal slats, then glass tape these to the boat as well, using 400gsm tape.

    Even if these slats get water penetrating them and eventually rot, there will be no penetration into the hull. Olden days method was to screw them on, but this leads to a water path into the hull timbers so should eb a no-no.

    Then at least two coats of two-pack paint over all.

    And check the underside for abrasion scrapes *regularly*..!!

    Another point re encapsulation is that this most often gets ignored for transom bolts, such as those for rudders or motor mounts.

    Highly advisable to use a hole saw to enlarge these alowing for at least 4mm of epoxy all around the bolt. Fill, tape over both sides with glass, fair in, and then re-drill for the bolt hole. Ditto drain plugs...
     
  12. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    Back in the 70's I knew a bloke who had a Hartley (at least 17 feet) but switched to a glass boat because he said the bottom had become spongy, not from rot, but the hammering he gave it in choppy waters, the claim being that the repeated stresses caused the ply to lose its stiffness. Not something that gets much publicity, but may be true for all I know. But I suppose not everyone goes out in all weathers and gets things to that stage.
     
  13. buzzman
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    buzzman Senior Member

    I doubt very much it was 'spongy' unless it had some rot in it, but it is certainly possibly for ply to delaminate, and the Type A used in the '70s were not as good as today's, so could feasibly have been brittle, and thus allowed delamination...

    But I have me doubts....
     
  14. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    The chap in question had a penchant for "excessive operation" which may well have doomed the poor boat. I remember him telling me that he flew so high off a big swell crossing a bar, it felt like they were in the air for five minutes. :D I don't know if timber fatigues under repeated stress, but he was certain it had, and believed it had made the boat harder riding.
     

  15. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I understand epoxy chemistry quite well, even formulating my own versions. From a technical stand point you're correct, all of the commonly available marine epoxies blush (there's only two main groups of the several epoxy chemistries available). This said, non-blushing formulas are available and do effectively curtail the amine groups, from reacting on the surface, particularly those that don't use amine based hardeners. I also agree you should always clean the epoxy, though sanding isn't the best approach, as you'll just rub the wax like blush, further into the surface. Washing with water and a mild soap is what formulators recommend (no solvents), of course followed by a good "toothing", for any mechanical bond to follow. Yep, environmental control is necessary, but good results can be had on site, with ripstop or plastic sheeting too.

    "having an epoxy "painted" coating is better than paint alone."

    Actually, you're better with paint alone, at least according to testing both peer and independent. Paint will permit moisture vapor to commute, an epoxy coating will not. Since it's an non-encapsulated piece, it's (the wood) going to move with environmental changes and asking a hard plastic, to absorb this movement, without reinforcement (fabrics) means it'll crack, if applied in the film thicknesses typically seen (a few coats). Second is the moisture vapor transmission issue, which is decreased with a non-encapsulated piece, so the moisture gets in, but has difficulty getting out. This is a common misconception about epoxy and I've repaired plenty of epoxy "paint jobs" as a result of this misconception. If you're just coating, without encapsulation, you need a reinforcement (fabrics) or you're better off skipping the epoxy and going straight to paint, which will not stop moisture vapor transmission and the wood can stabilize, to it's environmental changes as required.

    Agreed rub strips can help hull bottoms, but 'glassing them on is a bad idea. These are sacrificial in nature and best if just bedded and lightly screwed or nailed, not epoxy bonded and especially not sheathed with a fabric. These rub strips will get torn up, scratched and a sheathing will just get breached in places, letting in moisture, which will be trapped between the sheathing and the wood it enters. Rot will soon follow. Rub strips can be encapsulated, though I don't recommend it either, as again they'll get beat to hell on trailer bunks, beaching, groundings, etc and the coating breaches will cause issues. The best rub strips are inert materials, such as metals (bronze, brass, aluminum, stainless, etc.), or high modulus plastics like HDPE. If you must have wood, use a dense, preferably rot resistant hardwood, like white or live oak (live preferred). Just bed it in polyurethane or polysulphide and light fastenings. Light fastenings are used because you don't want holes in the boat if you bash something hard enough to rib them off (easy to do with a powerboat). If you do mash them good, the small, light fasteners will shear or pull out, leaving some minor repairs and a rub strip floating away, not a few significant holes, where the bonded rub strip and sheathing yanked hunks of hull bottom out. Of course, you have to assume repairs will be made in a timely manner, to the little #6 screws that got snatched out in the "incident".

    Two pack paint is nice stuff, but prefers a stable surface, which unencapsulated wood isn't. It's also costly to apply an LPU, not to mention not the easiest paint for the novice to work with. I'd recommend a good quality single part polyurethane or modified alkyd. They'll be at least 1/3 the price of an LPU, much easier to apply and you'll get good results and durability too. No, not quite as good as an LPU, but this is a Hartley, not a Swan 44.

    I also agree that "bonding" all hull penetrations is a good idea. The usual recommendation for fastener bonding is 30% bigger then the shank of the fastener, so a 1/4" fastener (6 m) for example would need (minimum) a 5/16" (8 mm) hole. This rule applies to everything, vents, drains, through hulls fasteners, etc. I generally just use the next size or two up drill bit or hole saw.
     
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