Hartely 30 with Lee Helm. Helpfull suggestions please

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Andy Turner, Aug 1, 2014.

  1. Andy Turner
    Joined: Aug 2014
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    Andy Turner Mr

    My boat overlaid against the plan

    I'm gonig back up to the boat on friday so I will take some really acurate measurements.
    I do have the original plans so yes I will check that everything is as it should be.
    But in the meantime, what do ya'll think of this......

    It's a side on photo of my boat overlaid with the side on image from the hartley site.
    Looks like the mast is indeed slightly forward of the plan, and tilted forward a lot and it also looks like the rudder and skeg is not right.
    do bare in mind the photo wasn't taken in perfect conditions at a perfect angle so the profile is going to be slightly different as a result of the camer angle discrepancy, but it does shed light on these issues.

    Mast is forward of where it should be.
    Mast is tilted forward
    Keels are missing a few inches on the leading edge (although mine is the bilge keeler and the plan is the fin keel version, also rememeber the bottom of my keels are longer than they apear as they were sunnk into the mud when the pic was taken)
    Rudder and Skeg don't look quite right, but they do work and provide excellent handiling in low wind and under power.
     

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    Last edited: Aug 2, 2014
  2. SamSam
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    SamSam Senior Member

    The boom is lower also and would put that much more sail area abaft the mast. That's the first time I ever used the word abaft.
     
  3. Skyak
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    Skyak Senior Member

    I thought the reason the mast was not centered in the lower stays was that the photo was angled. Is it not centered?

    Your photo comparison shows the mast tilted forward severely and the only point in common with the original design might be the step in the bilge. How is the mast stepped? On deck with a post I hope?

    Your rudder is short for the shallow draft design but it also appears to have a much shorter cord. I would have expected a proper design to try to increase cord to get back some power lost to shallow draft. A small rudder makes a boat extra sensitive to imbalance and you appear to be missing about 1/3. And then there's keel position...
     
  4. Andy Turner
    Joined: Aug 2014
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    Andy Turner Mr

    Original Plans

    Right, here's Sheet 6 of the original plans.
    I need to get some better pics and measurements from my boat next friday as I think the photo I have used isn't squared up correctly, difficult to do standing in the mud with my trouser legs rolled up.

    Rememeber the keel, and Rudder/Skeg I think, both sink into the mud a bit so they're a little longer than the photo suggests

    Anyway, here's a copy of Sheet 6 from the plans which clearly shows the recommended rake on the mast and that definitely seems to be the first thing I should do.

    All these problems stem from the fact that the last owner, who fitted the mast and fitted out the interior, didn't have the plans to work from, purchased a second hand mast and rig which presumably "looked about right" and fitted it as best he could.

    Maybe I should consider sourcing a different rig altogether?
    Oh and yes the mast is stepped on the deck. There is no post inside but I think there is a large bullhead. The whole interior is clad in Tongue and Groove Pine so I will have a poke about on Friday and see what lies beneath.
     

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  5. Tad
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    Tad Boat Designer

    Here's the sailplan with the bilge keels. Proper mast rake, move the headstay back onto the stem, and then start playing with the sails, ie, get a smaller jib.

    Hartley30.jpg
     
  6. Andy Turner
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    Andy Turner Mr

    I have roller furling genoa and in mast main (which is horrible but works ok I guess)

    I think raking the mast back is the general consensus for improvement here.

    Also some good points made about the sprit. I'll have a look at the sprit next time I am there and look at the viability of moving the forestay back behind the anchor roller instead of out at the end of it.

    Andy
     
  7. SukiSolo
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    SukiSolo Senior Member

    Sheet 6 as shown gives some useful information. There is a measurement from the stem to the mast foot. You need to check this. Possibly worth investigating the inside to ensure there is a box section or I beam across the boat in the 'roof' behind the lining. Maybe tapping will tell you? If she was built in this part as plans she should be OK there. Ensure the mast is sitting on the support area or it may come through the roof!.

    The sail plan is a bit old fashioned, she would probably be better with around a 3/4 or maybe a bit higher fractional rig. The large overlapping genoa as shown will probably cause a few problems and certainly exacerbate any lee helm. So Tads wise advice is completely correct, smaller headsails will help, and probably not be any slower.

    It looks as if the bilge keel versions rudder should be a longer chord than the fin one.
     
  8. Andy Turner
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    Andy Turner Mr

    Got someone coming to have a look :)

    Right I have a Sailmaker and ex british team sailer Alan Robbinson coming on Friday next to have a look and a tinker and with any luck go for a run.

    His instant reaction was, "Jesus that mast is leaning forwards, don't you have horrible lee helm?"

    So, hopefully some progress being made. Will keep you updated :)
     
  9. Andy Turner
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    Andy Turner Mr

    Have found out some interesting stuff

    Having dug through all the paperwork i got when i bought the boat but never really looked at, here ar some interesting details of what should be on the boat and what has actually been fitted.
    How far out are these numbers, are they far enough out to make much difference?

    Recomended mast is Sheerline (s 250) 160x112
    Fitted mast is a Kemp Selden (213/104)
    In mast reefing is the Kemp REEFIN system.

    Recomended mast height above the deck is 12.45m
    Fitted mast is actually 12.95m +0.082m mounting plate

    Sail dimensions from plan compared to actual sails fitted from an Ocean Sprite
    Plan Mainsail luff. 11.5m. Actuall mainsail luff is 10.8m
    Plan Mainsail Leach 11.95m. Actuall mainsail Leach is 11.2m
    Plan Mainsail foot 3.96m. Actuall mainsail foot is 3.8m
    Pan Mainsail area 23.68msq. Actuall mainsail area is 20.14msq

    Furling genoa dimensions.
    Plan genoa luff 12.74m. Actuall genoa luff is 12.6m
    Plan genoa leach 12m. Actuall genoa leach is 11.2m
    Plan genoa foot 5.3m. Actuall genoa foot is 6m
    Plan genoa area is 31.85msq. Actuall genoa are is 34.8msq

    Now, to my untrained eye those figures look pretty much as close as one could reasonably expect by sourcing a mast for a boat build. Looks like the guy did a pretty good job after all.

    So if the mast foot is in the right place, which i think it must be, it absolutely h to be a "simple" case of raking the mast backward?
    I will double check the mast foot position when i go up next week and look at the issue of the sprit/anchor roller mounting position for the forestay.
     
  10. Andy Turner
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    Andy Turner Mr

    Pics of the details

    Pics of the details
     

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  11. Andy Turner
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    Andy Turner Mr

    One more pic

    One more pic
     

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  12. SamSam
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    SamSam Senior Member

    He rigs it with a 15% smaller main, a 9% bigger jib, a mast and sail that leaves the boom 1.3 meters higher than planned, rakes the mast the exact opposite of what it's supposed to be and puts the head stay a half meter too far forward, and then there's the rudder......I believe you're very kind to say the guy did a pretty good job.
     
  13. Andy Turner
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    Andy Turner Mr

    Lol, ok you got me there. Trying to be kind and see the bright side.
    But point is, can i work with this mast and sail combo and get it working more or less properly for a safe family cruiser.

    Option 1. Try to sort out the setup i have?
    Option 2. Source a better mast and rigging and sails? the rudder looks right against the plans i have.
    Option 3. Sell up and look for another boat?
     
  14. SamSam
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    SamSam Senior Member

    I'd rake the mast back, move the head stay back and see what happens. I don't know if the extra mast height affects a lee helm or not, you might be able to cut some off the bottom to where the headroom below the boom is the same as planned. The imbalance in sail area might have to be addressed, but if you were willing to accept a little less overall performance, you might be able to keep the main as is and actually cut some off the jib to reduce it's size compared to the main to a proportion more like as planned .

    I've done very little sailing, but I do not like a lee helm. It's an open invite to uncontrolled gibes and potential disaster.

    I would put some effort into what you have. You know this boat and it's problems. Selling and getting another just starts the whole discovery process over, who has time for that? A "dead reliable Bukh 20", (I assume it's a motor, but it's also true if it's your wife) is always worth mountains.

    Btw, in another photo I saw of your boat when it was sitting in the marina yard, there was a post from the bow to the ground as support. I'm wondering if you couldn't rig up something you could swing down whenever you beached the boat so it would support the bow and keep it form falling forward.
     

  15. lewisboats
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    lewisboats Obsessed Member

    I think 90% of your issues will be gone once you rake the mast properly... the rest will be tweaking things to work out that last 10%... although you will have to do something about that tankage and weight imbalance.
     
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