Harley 42'

[Swamplizard]

Martin,

Steve in WA is the only other Harley owner I have ever spoken with and he has been very helpful with ideas.

The boat originally had 500 hp farera (NJ) 454s and the props were 20x23 pitch (3 blade nibral round eared low rake and no cup). When I purchased it it had been on a lift in Florida for 10 years as a project boat with blown motors that could not be repaired - the thread below shows what we went through:

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/orena...=&.done=http://photos.yahoo.com/ph//my_photos

I made one major mistake in the entire process, I decided that I needed 425 HP and since one motor was counter-rotating that I would go with 502's with carbs to keep things simple. I chose a guy in Ft Lauderdale to build the motors (instead of finding new ones) and though his references checked out he has a crack problem, flaked out and built two POS motors. I can't sue since there is a line in front of me and he has nothing to make good. So, after three rebuilds and many component changes she now runs okay but is under powered. How Steve can run his with 415hp stock motors is a mystery...mine is a dog.

Transmissions are 1.5:1 Borg Warners and I have Arneson ASD8s. She will cruise at 25 mph at 3600 rpm but doesnt sound good - working too hard and guzzling gas. At 3800 it sounds better if light (not too many people or fuel) and runs about 31 mph but feels like it is "pinned". As the drives get raised and the rpms go up all hell breaks loose - noisy, chaos, sounds like it is going to break apart but I can get a little over 4000 rpm and 40 mph....very unsettling and fule consumption jumps (I have navman gps and fule flow meters). Getting .8 MPG at 25.

My strategy going forward is two fold: I am hunting for smaller props, preferably cleavered 4-6 blades in the 17.5x21 range to see if I can get rpms up and get more into the HP of these motors. I am also playing with ventilation snorkels to help lessen the load at launch.

Second; I am looking to add blowers (small ones with 4 pounds of boost) to get another 75-100 HP and if I blow the motors -oh well - opportunity to get them built right and know CAM, roller, 4 bolt mains, Gill exhausts...not sure what the compression is so might have to change heads or pistons to lower compression since I want to run this thing on pump gas.

The props have been cupped, balanced, and changed to 19x19 but I am trying some other props since I cant seem to get more than 4100 rpm out of them.....would prefer 4800....and will keep these as spares if I find something better.

 

[pizzacutter]

joys of owning & fixing a harley

Harley Guys,
Good to see more guys on the site, after 17 years of owning I can tell you it's a lot of trial & error so any info is helpful. Steve, I saw your run-aground photo, I can one-up you as soon as I get the photo from my buddy. I hit a beach @ 30 knots @ night, I was so far up on land that you could walk all the way around. 20 men pushing and a work boat pulling got me off the next day and there was no damage! The girl with me was not too impressed. Martin, you are on the right track using Ken Martin for prop work, he is sharp. He sold me 2 sets 4 years ago and I am pleased. He also came thru this fall when I tore down the drives for new boots and decided to replace all U-joints, seals, hoses, etc. He has almost any part needed and an extreme amount of knowledge. I also know another guy in S. Fla. who is just as sharp. He and his son work for/with Twin Disc/Arneson on all types of applications. If you ever take the boat to S. Fla. let me know, you should have these guys do a sea-trial. That's great that your weight is down to 16,000 which is where I think I am. Lighter is better as long as the strength is there. That was Harley's biggest downfall. Lot's of knowledge with lite-weight materials, but not enough knowledge of structural integrity. 42' boat with poor stringer system+40 knots+bumpy ocean= PROBLEMS! The sad part is that the design was way ahead of it's time, but poor construction wiped it out. I think Harley was advised early on about potential structural problems but chose to ignore and the rest is history. I worked hard on port holes and have slowed leaks, but I don't think you can end them with the speeds we are running. I closed front ones cheap. A guy cut me pieces of 1/4" black starboard same shape but a little bigger, screwed them over holes with sealant. Looks OK, low cost, works. I assume you are stuffing the bow to blow out the windows, word of caution: we stuffed the bow 3 years ago in big seas @ 35 knots: very ugly, I'll try to find photos. The deck and hull seperated, lots of fiberglass & interior damage. We did most of the repairs in house and still spent about $7,500. Only good thing was that when the forward cabin was gutted we improved the hull to deck joint so that it would likely not happen again. Make sure you follow up on why so much stuff is moving around in cabin. If you need to beef up stringers or add a second ring frame, like the one at the back of the v-berth (I added one just forward of galley cabinets) do it sooner not later if possible, otherwise other stuff will break and break... Martin, don't want to discourage you but I think 2 mpg will not happen, 1.5 would be the best, based on my experience. Even when I had the 350hp Cats and backed off to save fuel I rarely saw 1.5. With the 420hp Cats I usually count on only about 1 to 1.2 mpg on long trips.
Swamp, Steve, my advice for what it's worth, try to save up for the diesels. It's a lot of boat for any version of twin gas big-blocks, unless of course money is not an issue. But even then.... I'd still try diesels. I've had 2 sets of Cats, 1 set for 9 or 10 years and the current set for almost 4 years. Total repair bills (not mait.) for both sets are probably under $5,000, for 14 years and 4,000+ hours! I saw you mentioned vent snorkels for the drives. I have tried both with and without and don't see much difference. However, the performance guys in Fla. are big on them. Some guys spend thousands on custom stainless tube versions. However, I think these guys are geared up for big top end speeds and are sacrificing the hole shot. Might be another reason to go diesels.
Good luck to all with Harley's. They are a lot of work but, can be a lot of fun. I'll keep in touch and look for more photos.

 

[Swamplizard]

Thanks Pizzacutter...good stuff.

I live in Florida and rarely run it hard in crappy conditions...there is always a nicer day around the corner so I hope to never stuff it at more than exiting the inlet speeds. I have done the math 20 times and cant justify diesels for my usage....down here a pair of decent cats or yanmars are close to 40 each plus rework to install....I dont have half of that in the boat now and since I don't use it every day (I'm a working slob with kids in college) cost of gas will not ever add up to 80k. Granted I don't have the torque I wish I had and my range with 300 gallons means I have to get fuel when I go to the keys or the bahamas (no round trips sans fill up). If I were to do it all again I would probably go with 540 cu monster gas engines from areputable builder like Chief but for now - I have to go with what I have and see if I can add HP with small blowers or head work to cruise easier.

 

[Swamplizard]

I found a set of 6 blade rollas - 17.5 x 22.5 and I have a prop question? How does the number of blades effect the prop's performance?

Shouldnt a 22.5 inch prop move 22.5 inches per revolution regardless of the number of blades?

Does it need more Hp to spin? Less drag or more? Less slip?

What are the dynamics?

Thanks

 

[martin@kroesche]

46 Harley

Gentlemen:
I typed a long post last night and when I hit submit it lost it, I think. This one will be short. Steve-my cabin has all been completely reinforced from end to end and nothing moves much-it had flimsy stringers and I had some shifting which has been completely remedied. I have bow pierced in the past(off Tampa in a storm), this will not happen again. I lost my windshield. There is constant pressure running rough through seas on those two front windows-they are designed wrong for that type of psi. Ill fix it. My prop situation will change in the next few weeks and ill give you an update with new numbers-and yes, 2.0 mpg is dreamy-but then I am fixing up a Harley boat-so I have to be a dreamer to see it done! Ill modify my expectations to 1.5 and go from there. My assumptions are based on what it does now with the drives all the way down and extremely inefficient and the gains from "surface mode" from the experts. My calibrated flow scans show it is getting 1.2 currently. This is going 37 knots. I figure I will be able to pull back on the throttles to say 32-35 knots(with the new props), to 2300 rpm which should burn 20ghp......we'll see. As for Swamplizard-if I can give one piece of advice-as I would have done it differently 7 years ago. I fixed my entire boat from end to end and at an extreme cost not even thinking about my prop needs-they are Rolla factory and now I have found out that after 7 years it has never been in its fast efficient "surface mode". I would have done everything I could to get the props correct first and then work on the other stuff. Your speeds sound abnormally low. With 20/20 hindsight I now realize that I have been loading/lugging my engines slowing down the boat and burning excessive fuel. The guys on this forum have made some great recommendations on props-call Ken Martin @ Pacific Surface Drives or Randy Hale @ Hale Propeller. These guys know what the are doing and will take the time to talk to you about it. If you or anybody is interested- I have two sets of props i am going to sell- one set is 24X26 three blade and the other is 22x38 three blade Rollas-all are 25tooth splined.

Ok, thats all-Greetings to all from the Miami boat show-ill post pictures soon.

Martin

 

[Swamplizard]

Thanks Martin - good stuff. I am assuming you have diesels. I seem to crusie at 30 mph and get about .9 mpg - lousy. I know my props are off and hope to get the boat spinning more rpms and lugging less for better longevity. Steve H is sending me a pair of props to try and I have found a few pairs locally - 6 blade rollas and 4 blade cleavers which I may also try. HE seems to crusie at 10 mph faster than I do with his bone stock 415hp motors but he is set up differently, motors rearward, transmissions are better...and I suspect his boat is lighter. We'll see. Thanks for the names - I'll call them next week.

 

[martin@kroesche]

46 Harley

Swamplizard:
I spent the day yesterday @ the Harley factory. That was interesting. I think all your problems are related to your props. What size are you trying? I am becoming a little knowledgeable. I too will send you a set of props to try-you probably should get a computer program recommendation-I am in Miami w/ a guy who is an expert and if you care to send me some data I will get a recommendation while I am here. Ironically, he had the same color hull you have, picture attached. He now has a 63' Harley with power vent. Its fantastic. Anyway, the engine forward is a standard configuration for these boats, I did weight test before moving mine an inch. My opinion is that they are fine where they are. I assume you have a factory 42' hull, 15000lbs with engines and gears. Did you ad weight during your refurb or was it neutral?
Please tell me; gear ratio, hp, est. weight and ill give you a recommendation from someone with a lot of experience. I have all of the hull drawings so I know the dead rise, LOA etc. to finish the calculation.
Ok, see you for now.
Martin

 

[martin@kroesche]

46 Harley

Harley Guys:
Two quick items. First, I am really excited about connecting with other Harley owners. I want to compile a database of boats and people I have talked to with the goal to create a resource for Harley owners eventually covering all areas from props to refurbs to stingers etc. Ideas? I am looking for a domain name currently and let you know immediately once secured. I would like to create database of owners as well and emails.....email me your opinion directly to martin@padredevelopment.com. Second, if anyone has seen of or has a old 42' hull I would love to restore another one based on what I now know. Condition doesn't matter, price does. Give me some feedback please. We could hop off this forum and go directly to a Harley forum?
Martin

 

[Swamplizard]

Howard Harley is selling one on his lot in Bartow.

 

[Swamplizard]

I have not added any weight during the refurbishing - replaced rotted floors with the same construction materials and replaced the 454s with 502s so no net change. What info other than in the above post will you need?
Current props are round eared - 3 blade, low rake 19x19. I get 30 mph at 3600 rpm and can get to nearly 40 at 4100 rpm but only when boat is light (little fuel or gear). 4100 is WOT which is not good - should be close to 5000.

 

[Steve H]

Whats up men?

Did a little prop testing this weekend. I removed my 18x21 three blade nibrals and installed a set of 17.5x22 rolla 4 blade cleavers. My WOT rpms went from 4,400 to 4,000. My top speed went from 50mph to 52mph as per gps. Lost a lot of bow lift. Nose is more or less planted at full speed. I am more comcerned about the rpms since most of the time I am running in the high 30's to low 40's anyway. These props are very smooth. No harsh vibrations at any speed. Gets on plain pretty good. I am going to make some phone calls to get some opinions on tweaking them for more rpms. I know most cleaver props are what they are. But I'm sure someone can play with the cup or pitch a little.
During testing I did torch the port motor. It has had oil pressure issues for awhile. So I wasn't that surprised. My back is already hurting just thinking about being hunched over that motor for couple of hours getting it ready to pull. I'll get my 16yr old son to give me a little help. luckily a local engine guy owes me big, so cost won't be a big issue. Boat has to come out soon anyway for some heavy service and bottom paint. I'm not going to worry about it for a week or so.I'm going to start my snowmoble for the first time in three years and ride tomorrow on Mt. St. Helens. It should be good.(if I don't torch that too)

Martin: Whats up at the Harley Factory? Hangin with Howard?

Pizza: What do you tow your boat with? What is the combined weight of boat and trailer? Sound like you tow alot. Just curious.

Steve

 

[Swamplizard]

torched a motor? What happened? Sorry to hear about the motor Steve.

 

[john2153]

a Martin, or a Harley

Martin, I have seen many Harley boats, and have seen the pictures of your rebuild.....trust me when I say you have a Martin, with Harley hull

 

[martin@kroesche]

46 Harley

Gentlemen:
Seems to be more of us these days. Hopefully I will have my site up in the next week or so. I want to have a similar format but also provide additional resources, like a catalog of boats, engines, drives, gear reductions, speeds and fuel consumption-performance data, i.e. weight to hp. I think it will be useful for anyone taking on this endeavor. By the way, we have a new one to the group. Howard Harley sold Bert's old 42 last week and it is going to be restored, per HH. Steve, I went to HH because I still think there is something to these hulls some 20 years later-but I don't know. Ill update you later.
I took a spin on a 63' Harley with power vents, saw 46 knots burning 1:1, what a machine. Took a video for you guys. By the way, to clarify, these are not HH's boats, these are HH hulls but these guys are doing their own thing completely. Ill have more on this on the site. Also, another 54 x 14 Harley which left the shop a few years back in being converted to a Sportfish, its awesome. Picture attached. Howard has another hull in his shop, a 54 x 14
raw hull, he's asking 250k which is a little pricey for its condition. More on that also.

Since I have started compiling data and photos of various HH boats, please send me data on speed, engine and gear config, fuel consumption, year and length of hull, condition, weight if known or estimated. Photos are also great. I will post a data sheet and simply mark the owner as N/A, or if you wish, place your name next to the boat. In my case, I don't care. But several will, so the owners name and contact will be held confidential.

Couple other items; John, thank you for the comment, a Martin, not a Harley which I agree, same with the others guys, like Steve's boat, inside and out is exceptional. At the Miami show there was some interesting stuff, most notably, a common rail Cummins diesel 480 hp, I'm sure designed to compete with the highly efficient 440/480 hp Yanmars. It is lighter, more fuel efficient(10-20% according to their numbers), no smoke and the package, engines, gears, electronic(awesome) throttles and smart center which is a 10 inch electronic control center, and....and.....lubricants, cables, lines, everything but the install, 71k! 20k less than the Yanmars. This is really something to consider. Volkswagen, Toyota have all produced small lightweight diesels now. Exciting stuff.

I'm excited about putting this together(the Harley owners site). Here is my direct email again; martin@padredevelopment.com. Ill send you guys an update soon, in the meantime here are photos of a new Harley 54 x 14 under construction in S. Florida. Regards. Martin

 

[pizzacutter]

Harley stuff

Sounds like good stuff being put together for Harley owners, By the way my name is Lee, Pizza Cutter is the boat name (play on words from a business venture). Martin, so you got to spend some time with Howard. Brings back memories- I almost bought a slightly used boat from him back in 1989, so I spent some time in Fla. with him on boats and at plant. He was bummed when I bought another slightly used boat (60hrs) from one of his buyers who did not like him very much. Howard urged me to bring it back to him for upgrades/re-power but I declined. I'm glad I stuck it out and did it my way. I made lot's of mistakes, but I'm sure HH would have made some too, perhaps more. I once had my boat with a guy in SW Fla. who had a couple of nice, nearly new, Harleys that he was working on. He said would De-Harley them for the owners so they could get more use out of them. His bill in some cases was 1/2 of the original purchase price. As far as all these prop questions going around, my experience has been to use the computer results for the original application, but then find someone local to fine tune after sea-trial. I used to take mine to a high-end shop with multiple lazers & computers for tune ups/repairs, but I found a local guy who does alot of work boats (little to no surface drive knowledge) and he seems to have the touch, his performance is right up with the best. I also had a badly damaged set repaired by a honky tonk shop in Fla. who had no surface experience and he turned in good results. I don't think it is rocket science.
I think Steve asked about tow rigs. We have a 3 axle trlr. rated for 20,000lbs. and I think that with the weight of the trlr, boat, fuel, and related gear we are pulling that amount and perhaps a bit more, 21,000 or 22,000. Especially on the Md. to Fla. trips when we load up with all fishing gear, scooters, and other junk. I have towed with most every brand dually pick-up over the years (hired, borrowed and personel) diesel & gas. My favorite is the big-block gas chevy with 4WD and the lowest gear ratio available. Even when they were 454's they were Ok but the current one is 496 (8.1 litre) with the 5 speed Allison auto. Works great right off the shelf, no chip, exhaust,... nothing modified and I use regular gas. Gets about 7.5mpg, has no problem with 70mph on I-95 and there is even a little more left if needed for passing. I'm sure the diesels get better mileage but they cost more to buy and I use mine primarily for the boat only so the truck has low miles. The gas rig also makes for a more user friendly machine when a friend needs to borrow the truck while in Fla. (quieter too).
Martin, good luck with the web-site, I'll try dig out old photos and other info to post when available. Also, good luck with finding & fixing another Harley (are you nuts!!??).