Harley 42'

you must be trolling for WAHOO's at that speed. You could just pull up beside one and ask him to jump in.

 

Hey Pizza, Welcome to the board!

It is very hard to find other Harley owners. I would love to see some pictures of your boat including engine room. I have been thinking of repowering to diesel. Just don't know if I want to commit to such a big project. I would do most of the work myself. Then be married to this boat for the long term.

I have considered CAT power. There are alot of those 3126TA engine packages at an afforable price out there if you look.

Questions:

Engine hours?
Any big engine issues so far?
Diameter, pitch, # of blades, brand and material of props?
Fuel burn at 38 knot cruise?
Trans make and model?

Thanks,

Steve

 

harley 42

steve,
i had troble posting the photos, if you wish to see them e-mail my assistant Susan at dominosusan@comcast.net and she can send them to you. one shows the cat engines. they fit very nice and are easy to work on. this is my second set. the first had 350hp each. I ran them almost 4000 hours and still sold them for 1/2 what i paid new. these are 420hp each, installed in 2003 now have 600 hours. no problems at all, maybe tighten a belt once in a while, thats it. the cats are reasonably priced compared to others. i paid under $40,000 for the pair including 5 year warranty. the trans. are twin disc #5061 and came from the cat dealer. current props are nibral 20x25 4 blade custom made by John Rose in Florida with advice from Ken martin in Canada and then fine tuned by a local guy who is real good with surface drives. i have used all types of props over the years including ss cleaver (see photo) with very little change. it seems that once you achieve the correct rpm and eliminate vibration the results are about the same with the $9,000 cleavers or the $3,500 4 blades. this current set gives great cruise, ok on top end and it does not matter if i am loaded with 250 gal fuel, 6 persons and gear, or low fuel and 2 persons, performance remains good. as far as fuel consumption it is difficult to get much over 1 mpg, maybe 1.2 if you cruise slow but i don't like to do that. we run them hard. including the original merlin engines and 2 sets of cats we are at about 5,000 hours total, plus thousands of miles by trailer (md. to fl.). it seems like it took a million man hours to put this rig in the shape it is in, (much more time in fiberglass work than mechanicals) but it is pretty tough and reliable now. we get a lot of use from the boat almost all 12 months of the year with only minor maintenance now. Good luck with your re-power decsion. if you use the boat a lot the diesels are the only way to go, they like to be run hard. if you have more questions post them up. i am looking for some more photos from a big re-furb in 1994. i'll post them if i find them.

 

what type of fiberglass work was needed?
Have you weighed it?

 

harley 42 fiberglass work

the fiberglass and structural improvements done to this boat are quite extensive. i'll try to make a long (and expensive) story as short as possible. once the boat was properly rigged with reliable cat engines in the early 1990's we started to run 60 miles each way to fishing grounds, somtimes 3-4 times a week. after encountering foul weather a few times we started to notice structural failures thru-out. ruptured fuel tanks, cracked flooring, and then the big one, the entire bottom laminate began to peel off. after consulting with some experts i ended up hiring a naval architect with knowledge in these type vessels (he had designed intrepids). he recommended a complete gutting of the cabin and engine room including tanks, engines, drives, etc. we actually took a chain saw to the cabin sofas until we were down to the bare hull. then a complete set of stringer/frames were built from the bow back to the engine room, including a strong "ring frame" just forward of the galley cabinets to reinforce the entire system. then the boat was flipped upside down and placed back on the trailer(see photo). we then spent a month or more removing poorly laminated f'glass and covering the entire bottom with 2 heavy coats of epoxy and cloth. then we flipped it back over and went into a lenghty re-install of all machinery & hardware improving the workmanship in any area we could. it is much stiffer now and probably heavier. it gets weighed frequently as it is on a crane 2-3 times a year that has a computer scale (the lifting device weight must be deducted from the total lift weight, along with fuel, etc.) i often ask the crane operator to give me the weights and he does, but honestly i've never made accurate notes. my best guess is between 16,000-18,000lbs dry but i might be off by a bit. hope that the description of the work doesn't scare the h out of you but that is what we actually did, plus we have done minor/major improvements to the 1994 job on & off during the last 12 years. i would point out that given the heavy use that we dish out i think any vessel would have required some of the repairs & upgrades done, but having started out with a harley made the ordeal even worse. the good news... my son & i use the boat a lot and we really like the finished product (the 5,000 hours of use include some real good times) hope this info is helpful & you are able to retrieve some photos

 

46 Harley

Steve/Pizza Cutter:
Greetings all. Sorry I have been slow to respond. Here are my numbers;

(2) 440hp Yanmars Diesels
Twin Disc 2.0 reduction(this was a mistake)
23.5" diameter/40 pitch 3 blade
ASD10 Arneson Surface Drives
boat wet/rigged 20,500lbs dry weight 18,000
47' L.O.A.

Max RPM Engine- 3500
Cruise RPM 2900 (per specs-10-12 gph)

Current status
Max RPM drive down 3100
Cruise RPM 2900 speed 36/38knots 16gph

The first mistake was taking the recommendation of the factory and using the 2.0 reduction v. the 1.50 prior. The factory concern is that the DD671TI485hp developed 1100lbs torque, the Yanmar 440hp develop 700. However, we dropped a net 4000lbs on the refit which in my opinion offset the reduced torque.

The factory guys said w/40 pitch props it will not come out of the water....they were making bets on the first sea trial, but I was right, it hopped out like a triple engine outboard. They were floored. At that point, I knew we had too much gear. They refused to back down from their recommendation or provide any support in changing to a 1.5 reduction.

So now the factory is insisting on 4/5 blade cleavers, rolla, which were quoted to me for around 14k each...yeah right. The Arneson guru in Miami recommended a prop shop who can manufacture a new set for around 5k, for both. This is where I want to take the boat so it can be spec'd out.

My goal is to unload the engines at cruise and reduce consumption, to develop max rpm and increase top end.

I am married to this project. Before I started the Harley refurb I found a 2004 Fountain 48 triple Yanmar cruiser for around 350k, I figured 50k for a conversion to a S/F, or around 400k total. I budgeted a fraction of that for the Harley and have spent twice what I budgeted. I am an owner!

Anyway, I am still adding stuff, cockpit a/c/heater, infrared night vision system and some other fun stuff. Ill fish this year and then I want to refit the cockpit seating,tower and windshield area. NEVER ENDS!!!!!! Should have bought the 04 Cruiser.

Thanks for the post, I enjoy reading them and ill keep you up to speed on my developments, please do the same on your end.

Regards to All,

Martin

 

46 Harley

Steve/PizzaCutter:
I forgot to mention, I had extensive fiberglass work during the refurb-i had experts check the structure which was/is perfect. I took the cabin and tank area down to the hull, replaced and reinforced the stringers to the front, added substantial ribbing and glassed in the floors and cabinets. There was some cracking and very thin spots, Howard had used coring material which was about 1" thick for the stringer. Steve, if you ever start using your boat in rough seas you might have to get into that, mine was extensive but not as severe as pizza cutter's. If you don't hit rough seas, your probably fine.

Martin

 

46 Harley

Steve:
We live on N. Padre Island, a barrier island on the central Texas coast. If you make it down here I'm sure we can find you and your wife a nice place to stay on the water....for the boat. We have great weather(except for today) and offshore fish,bay fish year round. So, if your serious let me know.
martin@padredevelopment.com www.padredevelopment.com


Regards,

Martin

 

Harley 42

martin,
sorry to hear about the tranny problems. when i switched to 420hp (from350hp) i had the chance to use a 1.5to1 ratio but i stuck with 1.15to1 because that's what the 350hp's had and i thought it went ok-40 knot top, cruise 33 knots. when it came time for props on the 420's i tried a few sets from pacific surface drives. one set was 5 blade ss cleavers (used) for about $10,000 and another set were used 4 blade nibral rollas for about $2,000. The ss cleavers didn't work but the used rollas were real close to what i had hoped for in performance but they had a some vibration and the top rpm was off a little. based on the sea trial information ken martin @ pacific surface drive was able to spec out a new set made in jax, fl. by john rose. everything was done by phone, fax, etc. the new set was about $5,000 (and i kept the used rollas for spares, returned ss cleavers). the new set (took about 4 months to get) didn't quite get the rpm's i needed so ken @ pacific advised a local guy on some minor changes (he also tuned up my used rolla spares)and i have been pleased with the result, although i really don't have much to compare with. we do get the correct top recommended rpm, 2850 wide open-45knots and good cruise, 2300-2400rpm-40knots. i've now got 600 hours on the 420's. ( note-ken @pacific surface drive had wanted me to go with 1.5to1 trannys and i ignored the advice, don't know what the result would be if i hadn't.) i would suggest consulting with ken martin 604-929-5321 he has never let me down with advice and/or parts. i don't know who you have consulted with in florida but i know a few other arneson specialists there if you need a contact. how about rik wimp of arneson in california, have you consulted him?
also sorry to hear about the budget explosion, i have experienced it as well. even after the extensive fiberglass job was done it just seemed like i could never get past some semi-major problem and the repair always led on to another and another. but as i mentioned earlier, i think any vessel that is 20 years old, has 5,000 hours on the hull and gets run at 40 knots+ in the ocean is going to need work, no matter who built it. then again, some of the workmanship problems were simply uncalled for, a better job could have been done for not a lot more money and time. there were a few builder short-cuts that i encountered that really pissed me off big time. but i guess that's why they're all called a hole in the water that you pour $$ into. good luck with the props, if you want a few more contact names & numbers, contact me.

 

46 Harley

Pizzacutter:
Thanks for the data. I will call Ken Martin per your recommendation. I have worked with Paul Sanderlin in Miami and I sent my propellers to Hale Propeller per his recommendation. My local guys have no idea what they are even looking at. One wont touch it and the guy who wants to is on crack.

I am in the same position, I have no idea what it would do with the 1.5:1 gear that I wanted, they were all afraid it would not come up, which I knew was not going to be a problem. It comes out of the hole like a rocket, no lag. In fact, its too much. If I had the 1.5 gear it would have to spool up and come out like a typical diesel which is fine if the top end or cruise were improved.
Its hard to sit here and complain when my boat cruises at 35 knots and will top out at 40kt, but its not an improvement over the DD671's other than fuel and room.
I have talked to Rik numerous times but I think his interest is in selling a new set of Rolla props, he is very helpful and has sent me parts on several occasions.
Hale Propeller is going to tweak my set, three blade 23.5x40's and make them 23.5 x 38 and modify the cup. I have also thought about having a new set made and keeping these for spares. Ill check with Ken. I'm looking to add a few knots to my cruise and I don't care about top end.

On to the fun stuff-and the, "I cant stop spending money on my boat category"-I purchased a FLIR (forward looking infrared) unit. It is incredible and will revolutionize night time activities(like boating). I am attaching a picture and go to http://www.flir.com/imaging/nmc/media/streaming/f02225be-3a49-4b08-8b65-d3bcb9b00ad2.asx. I have only used it a few times and I am still amazed.
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays

Martin

 

46 Harley

Steve/Pizza Cutter:
I spoke with Ken Martin @ Pacific surface drives per recommendation and he said that the 2:1 reduction is ideal for my application, fast fuel efficient cruise. I give up 4/6 knots on the top end but my cruise should be superb. His prop recommendation is a 25 x 35 4 blade, he said 40 knot cruise w/ 44 knot top end.
The Yanmar diesel should burn 10-12.5gph @ 2600 rpm, cruise. This means I should achieve 1.5-2.0 mpg with the new props. If this is the case, I have achieved all of my original goals, fast and fuel efficient. I could care less about the top end loss, 44 knots is all I ever need to do. I haven't heard from you guys, still out there? I post again after the new props are on. Oh yeah, I weighed my boat on the same scale as before the refurb, I was full of fuel but light on water, ice chest and gear. It weighed 16,000lbs v. 24600 prior to refurb. Hard to believe. The guy at the boat yard was amazed. Every replaced item was done with light weight composites. The engine room
reduction was 5000lbs alone. H.Harley said the 2:1 reduction is a tremendous mistake and it will never perform as desired until I change the gear.

Martin

 

Pizza/Martin

Sorry I haven't been around here for awhile. Been traveling and boating alot this summer.

Great posts, you guys are starting to make me think about diesel power. The performance and economy is awsome.

I have had it in severe water many times. So far I have had no structural issues. Except once. I put a nice dent in the front from a piling that got in my way while docking. Yes it did happen after the new paint. I think a bow thruster might be on my list next.

I have done alot of boating this year with no mechanical problems to speak of. Boat been great. I'm starting to run out of crew members. They are all getting tired of boating. Went for a ride to the next town on New Years for lunch. 28 degrees. Has to chip the ice from the swim step to use it. Thank goodness for Red Dot heaters. It was shirt sleeves in the half canvas.
Took a 600 mile round trip up the Columbia River Gorge in July. Water was glass all the way there and part way back, then went to heck. We were down to 10 mph in some spots. Had a clean anchor after it was stuffed in green water over and over. Lost the most of the inserts out of the swim platform. I turned around to save one of them but no one would reach over the side to grab it.

Attached are the pics that Pizza sent me. Wow what a project. It took alot of dedication to follow thru with such a monumental task. I hope I never get tasked with that.
I have also been in touch with pacific surgace drives and rik both. They both seem to know their stuff. I think Rik deals with alot of high dollar performance work and Kevin works with commercial lower speed guys. both nice guys and are very well versed in their fields. Martin let me know how the prop issue turns out.
you night vision unit looks awsome. Does it work better than night vision goggles? I have a gen 1 set that I can use if I have to. But I still go very very slow and have another set of eyes helping me out.
Keep in touch

Steve


Pic 4: This is what happens when you have been driving for 3 hrs straight. The river looks wide open. Your experianced first mate has the charts. He has been up this river more times than you have. The GPS is set with a big arrow that points to the correct heading. You hand the helm over to another crew member. Explain how the red arrow thingy need to point in the direction that the boat is going. You think that you should throttle back a bit while someone else has the wheel. But hey; we are in a hurry. What could go wrong? You reach in the cooler and grab an ice cold beer. Step to the back. Light a cigar. Crack the beer, admire the scenery flying by at 35 knots, admire that awsome rooster tail, listen the music of twin big blocks cruising away at 3800 rpm. You think to your self "It just doesn't get better than this".

Then Wham!

 

46 Harley

Steve:
Good to hear from you. That's an interesting picture, however, I would have said I did it intentionally because I needed to check the bottom! In various order, the Thermal Imager works w/o any light, through fog, smoke, rain etc because it uses a heat signature v. light enhancement. Check out the video at FLIR. I attached a link. It works perfectly in the harbor and in general at slow speeds, it also detects different water depth by color (as the temperature is different. It is a definite novelty and really the boat only needs one if you so a lot of night time navigating in unfamiliar waters. Its 50/50 as to weather I would buy it again. I am waiting for Ken Martin @ Pacific Drives and ill let you know the result, it should be dynamite. Don't forget, you have an open invitation to come with your boat, we have a dock for you. From here you can go to various destinations and if so inclined into Mexico like Tampico or Cancun. I think Cancun is 740 miles from here.
Since were having confessional, I had a little incident of my own. I too have a scapegoat. When doing the refurbishment, I wanted to glass in my windows. The man that owns the shop sat with me and stared at the boat, convinced me that it would be mistake and that the windows add character. They had always leaked in the past and I could not get them to stop with all efforts.
So, he talked me into replacing them with new ones. I did. Yesterday, for the second time, I blew out one of the front windows, this time the starboard. Prior to that it was the port. It seems as if they were not made to withstand a bow plow at 40 knots, nothing damaging to the boat rather a lot of water at once and fast. I realize different type windows would hold, mine are not these. This week I am going to glass in the two front ones and then go from there. I also need to beef up the cabin, I had a lot of stuff moving around. It was 3-5 seas and pure chop all day, like a washing machine. I kept slowing down buy the Harley loves speed.

I am attaching a couple pictures of the fishing trip, we bundled up when its below 60 degrees here so don't feel sorry for us. The picture of th bird is a diving seagull who went for a lure. Thanks God this week its back in the mid 70's. The speckled trout are from my dock in a few minutes, under a green light. There here every night along with black drum and red fish.

Good to hear from you. Plan a trip.

Martin

 

Hello - I am new to the forum but have enjoyed the Harley discussion. I (with countless hours of my father's time) have spent almost 3 years getting my superstar 42 running and cleaned up after it spent more than 10 years on a lift in south Florida - broken. At this point I am working on replacing the cracked and crazed windshield and working on finding some props that work better for cruising. Otherwise - knock on wood - just about everything works so I will be getting some cosmetics done and name her soon.

 

Harley 46

Send a picture. Going through this experience has been an education, please ask any questions if you have any. I am in the final stages of understanding my prop situation. What engines do you have? and drives? Love to hear more about it.

Martin