Great Lakes Coastal Camping Row-Sail Boat

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by johnhazel, Jan 24, 2015.

  1. johnhazel
    Joined: Jun 2008
    Posts: 250
    Likes: 5, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 60
    Location: Michigan

    johnhazel Senior Member

    I am considering building an easily driven row-sail boat based on the current six person outrigger canoes. This is for coasting/camping along Lake Michigan in the summertime. The boat in the picture weighs less than 100Kg and is 13.6m long. On flat water they can be paddled at 4 knots pretty easy even if only 2 of the people are paddling. I estimate that, set up for 2 people row-sailing, the total weight will be less than 500Kg which is about what the boat is with 6 paddlers.

    Typical conditions are wind 2m/s-5m/s, wave height 0.5m-1.5m. The wave period is 2.5s up to 5s, implying wavelength of 10m-40m.

    The vision I have is to make a tri-hull by putting two ama's on. This will provide easy location of rigging for oars and quick set-up and take down of the sailing rig. Drawing inspiration from the Viking longboat raids, this boat will be able to run quite a few miles up the rivers too. Trampolines on the iako will provide a floor for tent camping on the boat.

    In conditions of 4kts wind the oars will come into play, in 6kts-12kts wind, a smallish sail (20m^2?), in the fairly rare winds above that, the boat goes on the beach.

    Sailing on a reach, Rudder and daggerboard down, the drag of this boat at 8 knots will be less than 200N.

    Going to windward will not be a strong point but it needs some capability in that regard. Hopefully this boat will allow easy sailing on a course made good of 60 degrees off the wind.

    I am thinking of using 2 or 3 stayed windsurfer sails with modified battens so the sail does not need to be yanked on to get the battens popped to the correct side. I would like to hear from experienced designers and sailors what sail arrangement they would use.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
    Posts: 13,733
    Likes: 419, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 2031
    Location: Milwaukee, WI

    gonzo Senior Member

    Are you planning on camping on the Wisconsin side too?
     
  3. Trent hink
    Joined: Sep 2013
    Posts: 26
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 27
    Location: Sarasota fl

    Trent hink Junior Member

    Hi, if you do a google search for "Hawaiian sailing canoe" images you will see it is not at all unusual to put a sailing rig on an oc6 canoe. From what I understand (I could be wrong), these rigs do not use a leeboard because with six strong paddlers it is faster just to paddle straight upwind but there is no reason the could not be made to sail upwind well.

    Here is maybe a video of my 16' canoe which has an infinitely reefable rig that is at least superficially similar to those used on the hawaiian canoes. there is a link here:
    https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10202441043815876&l=92008583635563126

    When the video was made I was hoping to unfurl the sail simply by pulling on the adjustable outhaul, since that did not work I added a second line for unfurling. In the video, I unfurl the sail by rotating the mast with my hand.

    Trent
     
  4. johnhazel
    Joined: Jun 2008
    Posts: 250
    Likes: 5, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 60
    Location: Michigan

    johnhazel Senior Member

    Yes possibly.
     
  5. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
    Posts: 13,733
    Likes: 419, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 2031
    Location: Milwaukee, WI

    gonzo Senior Member

    You'll find the wave period much shorter than that. The strongest, long lasting winds are usually NE and SW. They can build up pretty large waves on the opposite shore. In Lake Michigan's conditions, a boat like that is going to have waves washing over it most of the time.
     
  6. johnhazel
    Joined: Jun 2008
    Posts: 250
    Likes: 5, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 60
    Location: Michigan

    johnhazel Senior Member

    That's not what I have seen Gonz and the bouy data agrees with me. On those 1 out of 20 days I will do as I see all the other boats do, stay in harbor or on shore.
     
  7. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
    Posts: 13,733
    Likes: 419, Points: 93, Legacy Rep: 2031
    Location: Milwaukee, WI

    gonzo Senior Member

    The buoy data is from the middle of the lake. Shore conditions are different. Also, the waves bounce from shore and create confused seas nearshore.
     
  8. Trent hink
    Joined: Sep 2013
    Posts: 26
    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: 27
    Location: Sarasota fl

    Trent hink Junior Member

    I used to live in Milwaukee and I think Gonzo is right.

    I used to windsurf and kitesurf on Lake Michigan and wouldn't go out unless the wind was more than 8 m/s. Conditions can change abruptly, for example in the spring and summer when a sea breeze kicks in the wind will change from light offshore to very strong onshore very quickly.

    You could design the boat to be safe in such conditions so that if you get caught out you might get wet but you still be safe. Consider making the cockpit floor raised above the waterline with scuppers for self draining, hatches for dry storage underneath.
     
  9. johnhazel
    Joined: Jun 2008
    Posts: 250
    Likes: 5, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 60
    Location: Michigan

    johnhazel Senior Member

    Yes I do plan on having hatches that cover water tight compartments. For example the six paddle stations could each be a compartment. The mounting points for the sail rig will be located at the junctures of the hull and bulkheads.

    So what I am looking for is a sail rig that can be dropped easily, mast and all. One option is the Tabernacle style or possibly an A-frame mast but I have no experience with them.
     
  10. Skyak
    Joined: Jul 2012
    Posts: 1,194
    Likes: 25, Points: 38, Legacy Rep: 152
    Location: United States

    Skyak Senior Member

    I am perplexed
    -you say row but show a paddle design.
    -you plan a 6 man canoe but will only carry 2?
    -The design you show has minimal outriggers -they just help the crew balance. But you talk about sail carrying capability and seaworthy issues.

    The design you show is only seaworthy with a full crew of strong experienced paddlers. With a crew of two this is completely wrong and potentially dangerous. if you want a boat of some paddle and sail capability for two you should start with a boat of appropriate size. If you want a 6 man race outrigger it will be good for nothing more than splashing around sheltered water for 2.
     
  11. johnhazel
    Joined: Jun 2008
    Posts: 250
    Likes: 5, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 60
    Location: Michigan

    johnhazel Senior Member

    I do admit to only having about 40 hours of OC6 paddling and of that 40 only 2 in rough conditions that would bounce us around in our stations as we paddled. However in those conditions I gained a great respect for how well these boats manage waves coming from any directions, even in confused waves bouncing off a cement wall mixed with the direct incoming ones.

    My concept here is to take advantage of how easily driven these boats are. A very small sail would drive it. So far I have one suggestion of using a roller reefing sail. And that seems like it might be adaptable so it could go up and down quickly.
     
  12. Tiny Turnip
    Joined: Mar 2008
    Posts: 611
    Likes: 89, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 743
    Location: Huddersfield, UK

    Tiny Turnip Senior Member

    Have a look at Solway Dory, Third post down here, with links to their site and video:

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/bo...ng-rig-small-light-race-cruise-tri-51821.html

    Basically a 16' sailing canoe with overgrown outriggers and a modest rig. Designed for camping round the West coast of Scotland - no idea how that compares to your conditions on Lake Michigan.

    Unstayed rigs - reef by rolling round the mast. Not hard to extract the whole rig, mast and all.
     
  13. Skyak
    Joined: Jul 2012
    Posts: 1,194
    Likes: 25, Points: 38, Legacy Rep: 152
    Location: United States

    Skyak Senior Member

    I love human and sail driven boats (or more precisely human and nature powered). The objective is wonderful and 'easily driven' is the key factor. This is exactly the reason for my question. For a boat powered by two paddlers your dimensions are way off. It would take far more thrust to drive this 13.6M long hull than something more appropriate around half that size. Force to control is even more of a problem. The wind and waves will have their way with you at 13.6M. And waves don't only coincide with wind so you can't count on wind for power to control.

    If you look at the big Raid style races you will see that 6.5M is pretty aggressive for two crew to push. There are lots of good examples there for a more appropriate size.

    If you have 2 crew two sails is a good plan. Roller furling is a very convenient for handling but not so good for shape. Rolling the sail on an unstayed mast seems slick but the fatigue life is brutal. You may be very surprised how strong the base has to be. I like the idea of an A frame mast for an easy moderate performance rig. A roller furling genoa on it would be great with a sprit main that could hang from either upright. That's what I have been leaning toward.
     

  14. johnhazel
    Joined: Jun 2008
    Posts: 250
    Likes: 5, Points: 18, Legacy Rep: 60
    Location: Michigan

    johnhazel Senior Member

    What means are you considering for attaching and transferring the main from side to side?
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.