Good reasons NOT to design

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by catsketcher, Aug 9, 2006.

  1. Toot
    Joined: Jul 2006
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    Toot Senior Member

    Screw modifying the program. Once it is done, you could just make it a sticky at the top of the sub-forum. Simple as pie.
  2. SeaSpark
    Joined: Mar 2006
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    SeaSpark -

    Design qualities

    Making a design for anything useful is a difficult task. Making the product of the design affordable is even harder. Drawing up plans for the home builder is not very easy also, you will have to communicate your ideas to someone with less knowledge on the subject. So i still think my hillbilly design is not a very bad one, in the right hands it can be safe.

    I do like some of your idea's to improve the forum, there is a special place for suggestions like this:

    Forum Questions and Suggestions
  3. timplett
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    timplett Junior Member


    Did anyone ever consider the fact that if you people that supposedly know something would take the time to explain to us "idiots" why our ideas won't work, instead of just telling us we're stupid, then eventually we made graduate from idiots to self-righteous, condescending a$$holes like many of you? I'm sorry, I don't mean to b an a$$ myself, but half the people here talk like they're smarter than everyone else, but they aren't willing to help anyone out.

    YES, if someone wants to try something impossible/dangerous, tell them they're wrong, BUT tell them why, and don't make them feel like ******.

    OR, perhaps if they're ideas has some merit, even a little, suggest a different method to accomplish their goal, or a modified goal which is possible to be accomplished.

    The reason I joined this forum is because I wanted to learn a few things, but no one seems willing to teach, they'd rather just get PO'd at the newbies. Look at it this way, either you explain to us how to do it right, or kinda right anyways, or we just all learn by trial and error, so we can blame you for out broken limbs or fatalities.

    Tim Plett
  4. frosh
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    frosh Senior Member

    Tim, first you should have learnt some manners when you were a kid.
    Second, I suggested that you do some of your own research using Google as all the info is available for those of use who are not lazy. Then you would at least be capable of entering into a dialogue that makes sense to you.
    Third, when I wrote this a few days ago I knew that someone like you would come along within a couple of days. I just regret that I didn't use stronger language but unlike you I won't dirty my good name!
    "The fact is that a few will read the result of all this well meaning effort, the majority will have no f-----n idea that such a thing might exist!
    Worse than this a certain percentage who read the new guidelines will resent the fact that those "supposedly in the know" refuse to pass on the knowledge needed to design and build the boat of their dreams!"
  5. timplett
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    timplett Junior Member

    I thought the point of forums was so that you could ask people questions and find out in say half an hour instead of sifting through Google results for 3 days. Maybe I'm wrong...

    And back to my point of explaing why we're wrong, Google will just give you a list of what's "right" as construed by whoever decides what's right and proper. When you ask a real person, they can tell you if you're wrong or just different, and give you a reason.
  6. Figgy
    Joined: Feb 2006
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    Figgy Senior Member

    What's wrong with Google? I still use it. I'm still learning, and I don't rely on getting all my answers from just this site. Why not research your question first, or get a book on the subject and try to learn something new? No, odds are you won't do that. It's too hard. Its much too easy to have us explain it to you.
    Maby you'll learn something from "sifting through Google results for three days".
  7. Toby P
    Joined: Jan 2006
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    Toby P Junior Member

    Interesting thread. There are many talented people who build their own boat having had no formal training - but that does not mean that boat design/construction is easy. Whilst this forum attracts a broad spectrum of users, there are undoubtedly some who under estimate how complex a subject this is. Why do you think you can (or have a right to) learn this subject via a forum? Some 'newbies' post well thought out, carefully researched designs, others... well you admire the enthusiasm. Some, however, are just lazy and disrespect the professionalism of those who post here trying to help. You will get a lot more help from this forum if you have at least done some of your own research, read a few books or shown some effort to understand the basic princples. Folk who post here expecting a free course in boat design should be grateful for any response at all. If you really want to know if you are going "right", take a course or pay for professional advice.
    For my part, I trained for eight years to become a Chartered Naval Architect, and I'm still struggling to design a 14' dinghy!
  8. timplett
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    timplett Junior Member

    In defense of myself, I still am using Google, some stuff I just can't seem to find. I also have read several books in the past. For me I want a small project to tinker with, I'm not going to shell out a bunch of money on courses and training. I'm sorry if I'm not professional enough for you.

    May I also ask why everyone here seems to be so angry?
  9. Figgy
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    Figgy Senior Member

    No ones angry. It can be frustrating. I can't speak for everyone here, but mostly its the people that come in and expect answers right away, then bust our chops if they don't get what they want.
    It's not that your not professional enough, but most of us like to see some sort of effort put fourth. More than just posting a question here.
    Tell us; "Damn fellas, I've been searching high and low for the answer to this problem. I havent found it on the Net, and I searched this fourm but nothing turned up. I'm trying to whatever. Could someone point me in the right direction?"
    Youd probably have more replys/info in that half hour than youd know what to do with.
  10. timplett
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    timplett Junior Member

    Ok well thank you very much. I will try to find as much as I can myself.
  11. catsketcher
    Joined: Mar 2006
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    catsketcher Senior Member

    The hornets nest is stirred

    Hello all,

    Email may not be the best way to discuss this topic. If we were all around a bar or meeting each other on our boats I am sure there would be no hard feelings. I have had many people ask me about my boats and am always happy to talk about them - talking about boats is something I like.

    The main reason for my query that started this thread was that I wondered if I was doing a dis-service to those who want to design but are new to the sport by helping too much. If you can't hack the thought of going through design books like Skene's, going through boat yards, and rifling through old mags and the like the hardened bit in me says you probably can't cope with the hassles in designing and building. It is a little like an initiation - those who like reading, drawing and thinking boats may have the wherewithal to carry it out.

    Because it can be hard work. For my own project it has taken 5 years of thinking every day about the boat. I had built two large multis and have raced and cruised for years and I had to design and build a concept prototype and am now building a new design production prototype. It may be worth it financially in the end but if I didn't really need to do it then the time it takes away from my family would not be acceptable.

    My own project is a little out of the ordinary but I use it because it is the only experience I have. For the people beginning out there, and remember we are all learning here, please feel free to ask for help but it is incumbent on all of us to try as hard as we can on our own before we ask for a hand.

    The reason is that when we design and build the thing we have in our mind we will require fortitude and resilience many many times that needed at the start.


    Phil Thompson
    2 people like this.
  12. frosh
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    frosh Senior Member

    Hi Phil, your prediction re the hornets on both sides trying to sting! - were quite accurate. You have a way of articulating the problem very clearly, faced by both the newbies and the more experienced attempting a response, without getting emotional.
    Not wishing to really add anything new except to say even though it might occasionally appear that the "knowledgeable" (who are in fact still learning by their own mistakes) are holding out, we are all here to share what we know and glean new stuff from others as well. It is my experience that genuine questioners (even raw beginners), that have shown some effort and thought beforehand, are treated by responders very generously.
  13. rayaldridge
    Joined: Jun 2006
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    rayaldridge Senior Member

    Well, it's probably true that whatever the average intelligence here happens to be, half of us are smarter than that and half of us are dumber.

    I would guess, just judging by other fields in which creativity is important-- publishing and the visual arts, which are my day jobs, that those who express the greatest exasperation with clueless newbies are the lesser lights in the field, somewhat insecure in their own abilities. The great talents in most fields are almost uniformly humble and helpful; they realize how much they were helped by those who went before them and they grasp the essential virtue of "paying forward," if the field is to progress.

    I've found the folks here to be quite helpful, as a rule. It's good to do your homework before asking questions, so that you're in a position to understand the help you're getting. I'm sure it's frustrating for an expert to get a question in a form that makes it obvious the questioner has no practical grasp of the subject, but the experts should remember that they're under no obligation to attempt a reply.

    And I disagree with the sentiment that clueless newbies should be automatically discouraged, lest they build a terrible boat and kill themselves and a few innocent bystanders. On the scale of dangerous acts, building a little boat is far less dangerous than, say, taking a road trip when you're tired or otherwise impaired. How often does it happen that a bad home-built boat kills someone? Most of the deaths occur aboard commercially produced craft, after all, boats which were designed by recognized naval architects. A bad boat will likely just not sail very well, and is unlikely to be fatal unless you sail it over Niagara Falls or undertake some similarly impractical voyage.

    Besides, remember that many of our greatest designers were not formally trained in their fields. They had to start somewhere.

  14. lazeyjack

    lazeyjack Guest

    you are doing wonderful things Good fer you
    With a lifetime of building, I have much knowledge I like to share, but here and by email, nyet, non, no, its all such a vast thingie to try splain in a letter
    I started a book about building hands on in Aluminium, , 2 years ago, it progresses when I get a surge, and have even given away drafts to people who are starting projects with NO knowledge at all
    keep at it, thats an order:)))

  15. Raggi_Thor
    Joined: Jan 2004
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    Raggi_Thor Nav.arch/Designer/Builder

    I think the most important issue is that you get a lot for very little when you buy a set of stock plans. Look at some plans from a good designer. For a few hundred USD you get drawings and building instructions with all details thought through and solved. It will take you weeks or months of work to figure out such details in your own design. If that is work you enjoy and do for the pleasure of it, that's fine. If you primarily want to build a good boat in a limited time frame, then buy the plans (or a kit :).
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