Getting the Bilge Ready for Epoxy

Discussion in 'Wooden Boat Building and Restoration' started by gillam77, Nov 7, 2010.

  1. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    G.G most shops have stopped using penetrating epoxies. As I mentioned above the jury is in, the testing done and it's never been able to stand up to it's advertising hype. It doesn't prevent moisture vapor ingress, so it's usefulness as a coating is severely limited. In fact, there are primers that do a better job then penetrating epoxies at 1/3 the price. These types of products were popular over a decade ago, but not now. The only folks still using these diluted goo's, are those that haven't kept up with research and engineering trends in the industry. These same builders and restorers also insist on using straight alkyds, in spite of the clear advantages of the modified version, not to mention the LPU's. They're stuck in their ways and will likely never change. This is typical in most industries, a few left over "throw backs" to a time long past, insisting they're still right and the research and testing is all wrong. It's these same guys that can't understand how I was able to reproduce a set of very stylized gauge bezels in the sweetest looking chrome. Everyone insists they are hand tooled stainless with chrome, but they are cast epoxy, that has been chrome plated. "You can't chrome plate plastic" they demand. Of course I know better and they'll go to their grave thinking I'm blowing smoke up their butt, when in fact, they've not kept up with industry advances. My usual reply to these bronze age relics is, "you don't think the shinny part of your plastic grill, on your truck is paint do you?" Yep, it's chrome, regular, electroplated chrome.
     
  2. alan white
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    alan white Senior Member

    I stand corrected, though the cost of encapsulating a brand new carvel or similar boat (or old one that's been dried out and disassembled) has to make the practice questionable. Any case, a double bottom and laps and faying surfaces ALL have to be coated. Is it worth it?
     
  3. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    It's a very rare client that will pay to do all the extra work Alan. Some, particularly if the boat has some intrinsic value, like it's racing history, previous ownership, etc. this could justify the work, but most of the time these "special" cases get the full up restoration instead and not a "modern" interpretation.

    In the case I mentioned, the client just wanted the boat with much less hull maintenance. The upkeep on the rest of the systems and the yacht as a whole was enough to keep him busy.
     
  4. GG
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    GG offshore artie

    The real peoblem here is you , and you seem to be ANTI AMERICAN , and to tell you the truth you seem to be the only person on this forum who has to start an argurment with just about anybody and everybody and to tell you the truth mr Big mouth who got pulled from a bunker during childhood from his Nanny ( which was a big mistake ) before everybody was ordered to commit sucide , my buddy (steve) and i have both been in this business for many years now and just curious when was the last time we have ever seen any boats built in Germany crossing the finish line doing triple digits using the finest composites in there build? Hey guy i forgot to mention that when anybody in Europe wants to see trible digits they come to America because everybody in Europe builds slugs or should i say work boats with a few exception,s and that being Team Victory along with a few others. Hey guy i looked at the pic in your profile and you look like one old grumpy man that needs to get laid and talk about the bags under your eyes !!! I Guess the bottom line is you always seem to open the door with you rude commets to anybody and everybody which are mostly directed towards Amercians and with that in mind if you decide to bash people .....expect the same in return because you always seem to be the first person on this site to bash someone .
     
  5. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Nice rant....

    gave us a deep insight into your educational level. zero...

    Where, and how I build my boats (the most famous US brands amongst them) is not part of the topic here, as far as I am aware. So, kiss my *** you stupid *****.
    And play your dumb Nazi card again, the world likes that.....
     
  6. GG
    Joined: Jan 2008
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    GG offshore artie

    Whah , poor little Apex and who's on a rant ? Apex , you big baby and to think you are the dumbest tool in the shed and for once do you think you could possibly take your a$$ off your shoulder's ....................... and does are poor little Apex ,got his little itty bitty feelings hurt ..............Whah , yah big fricken cry baby and this is comeing from a guy who likes to dish it out ..... Whah . Apex , this whole thing sure does bring a tear to a glass eye, and go to sleep little baby and whats that word ...........Whah
     
  7. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Not worth to reply on a uneducated rant like this. But for the records.....:)

    And you are far off topic <removed>......
    Your promotion of penetrating epoxy did not earn you a penny.:)
     
  8. alan white
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    alan white Senior Member

    I meant, a new classically built boat built as designed in say, 1958, has too many complicated parts to make epoxy practical (of course, if you are ultra-rich, you can pay to have each piece triple-coated and each screw hole, etc....). When the boat is redesigned to take advantage of epoxy, parts are designed differently; fewer frames, fasteners, and parts and panels are larger.
    Of course, only a die-hard purist would build a boat the old way and then coat every piece in epoxy. Heck, the same goes for a rebuild to a lesser extent.
     
  9. GG
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    GG offshore artie

    ********, then why did you bother to reply and just for the record you have been off topic since you started to RANT and did you think you would get the last word in ...................... ******** , go to sleep your time is overdue .
     
  10. gillam77
    Joined: Jan 2010
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    gillam77 Junior Member

    Thanks everyone for your input. Please correct the following...

    This is a 1959 Penn Yan Magellan. 18' Mohogony plywood on oak frames lapstrake construction. I have new ribs and the plywood of the entire bilge has a brand new layer of veneer. Above the waterlines to the gunwales (interior) has been stripped to bare wood.

    Steps (assuming the boat is cleaned out well)

    1. Treat all the barewood with linseed oil and turpintine
    2. Do not apply any sort of wood sealer
    3. Started with varnish/ thinner 75/25
    4. Light sand
    5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until 100% varnish and no less than 5 coats.

    Am I right here? Thanks everyone for staying on point its been entertaining.
     
  11. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Concur Alan, if it is a classical design, the extra effort is nonsense.


    Gillam,

    a treatment with linseed, tungoil, turpentine mix is not wrong in your case. It takes quite a while to dry out completely, though.
    Then put several coats of paint on.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  12. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Ya. not a bad way to go about it. Why varnish ? in the bilge. Not the most robust of finishes for bilge work . do make sure that you apply the recomended film thickness of whatever you eventually use. A typical interior bilge coating will be a two colour system ...Say, orange first coat , then final coatings grey . You do this two colour technique to make sure, by visual inspection, that the film thickness and coverage is one hundred percent correct . .
     
  13. mark775

    mark775 Guest

    GG, you are an embarrassment. Please shut your hole.
     
  14. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I disagree with the linseed and turps treatment under varnish. This is a moderately effective treatment under paint, but just mediocre under varnish. Linseed turns grayish black with age. A better choice would be tung, but again these old school treatments aren't the best way to go. Plywood doesn't rot like solid wood, the glue lines interfere a great deal.

    Personally (if forced by a client), I'd use a clear poison in the bilge first, saturating the wood until is could take no more, then when dry (about a month) varnish at 75/25 for the first coat, with straight varnish after, minimum 6 coats, preferably more.

    Personally, I wouldn't use a pre-treatment at all. It's not necessary and with a varnish finish, you'll notice right away if there's any issues going on. This is what Penn Yan and all the major manufactures did back then. It also the way I restore now, as well as most reasonable restoration specialists. There's no need to envision additional protection when it doesn't exisit. My point is you don't need to "treat" the plywood. and the oak has good natural resistance.

    The desire to finish bright is a good idea and the one that most of the major manufactures used in the heyday of these builds. It permits the wood to breath (only important for the ribs) and you can quickly see if a problem has arisen.

    If it was me, I'd soak the wood with the first thinned varnish coat. I'd slather it on like an asphalt driveway repair. I'd chase down "dry" spots during the first few hours of the drying time, with more thinned varnish, then let it cure good. This effectively seals the wood. Then straight varnish as fast as I could get it down in thin (brushed thin, not diluted), neatly applied coats. This makes it pretty and slightly hardens the surface.

    Lastly, this finish assumes a routine maintenance program and level of care that wouldn't be typical of a modern boater. Someone like me, Alan, Richard or maybe you Gillam77, but not the vast majority of folks that own boats. This finish will bite you in the butt if you let it go.
     

  15. missinginaction
    Joined: Aug 2007
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    missinginaction Senior Member

    Hey, don't forget me.....I'm a maintenance fanatic:)

    And, fwiw I don't think that people have to be mean here. That comment directed at Richard was just wrong. The one he flagged. I won't even repeat it, it's too low. It seems that gillam77 was savy enough to figure things out for himself. Good for him.

    MIA
     
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