German frigate fails sea trials

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by DCockey, Jan 14, 2018.

  1. DCockey
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    DCockey Senior Member

  2. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    "Those failings, they say, result from Germany’s military brass never settling on a defined brief for the vessel."

    ... as is always the case. Fail to Plan is a Plan to Fail.
     
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  3. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Oh dear..

    Most likely down to politicians sticking in their unwanted advice/recommendations/instances, for their own politician gains. Just like the SMART procurement in the UK MoD many years ago.
    Just leave engineers and naval architects to do what they do best. One does not see naval architects interfering with the Politicians daily briefings or manifesto telling them how to do their job....for good reason!!!
     
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  4. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Maybe you should look into Bill Wilkes and his work at the Wall Street Journal, before conclusions are jumped all over. Both Wilkes and the Journal are pretty hard right leaning, so their jumping all over this, can be anticipated to some degree. Additionally, grandiose assumptions about another country's abilities, military strategies and engineering pursuits are simply that, the ramblings of a Rupert Murdoch owned, directed and spun writer, that has pleased his boss, who's world vision isn't based in truth or righteousness, just the political spin he can generate for those he prefers. In time, it would be nice if this era of idiot would die off, but they've reproduced and their children are nearly as closed minded, though not quite as bad, so maybe some hope yet . . .
     
  5. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    If you dont like the WSJ, try this one

    "The German defense procurement agency BAAINBw has reportedly returned FGS Baden-Württemberg, the lead ship of German Navy’s new class of F125 frigates, to the Blohm+Voss shipyard."

    Germany returns lead F125 frigate to builder, report https://navaltoday.com/2017/12/22/germany-returns-lead-f125-frigate-to-builder-report/
     
  6. Remmlinger
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    Remmlinger engineer

    I am German and I can tell you, this is only the tip of the iceberg.
    After the reunification of Germany the military lost its importance in the public opinion.
    The result was the end of the compulsory military service.
    For several years now our minister of defence is a woman. Her first activity was the acquisition of maternity dresses for female soldiers, flat screens in all barracks and new nurseries. Her first priority were compulsory seminars for all generals about sexual identity and gender.
    She demanded, that one of our tanks must be technically updated, becaus the breathing air inside the vehicle could be harmful to pregnant women when the cannon fires.
    The majority of our helicopters is grounded for technical reasons and none of our submarines is operational. The fish stinks from the head.
     
  7. JosephT
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    JosephT Senior Member

    Sad to learn this Remmlinger, but Germany is not alone in this area. Modern warships, like modern cars & planes, are riddled with automated systems wth computer chips & sensors. Even when they are working fine for a while, the lifespan of the sensors can become the achilles heel of the entire vehicle and can cause it to shut down. For example, a ship is running along just fine. The engine & drive system is in solid shape. All of a sudden a faulty engine temperature sensor will trigger an automatic engine shutdown.

    Unless there is a manual override to this faulty sensor, the engineer who designed this sensor should walk plank in my opinion.

    [​IMG]

    Aside from GPS (I love GPS), I for one am a long time fan of analog devices for the major systems of any vehicle or boat. Boats like this one are dead in the water when their systems fail.
     
  8. Ad Hoc
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    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Yup...as I said...Politicians sticking their ore in where it is not wanted, merely for their own Political gain, rather than for the best of the Armed forces being above their own interests.
     
  9. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    Some responsibility will also have the naval architects and other technicians, right?
     
  10. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    It's not that unusual for new systems, electronics, software, etc., to experience bugs and startup issues. This has always been the case, though in recent decades, with automation and electronics having an ever increasing role, a larger percentage of down time.

    As to politicians screwing with things, this just isn't taken in context. Politicians have run the military in democratic countries since their conversion, from whatever former style of government they had. This is normal and appropriate, if you'd like to keep some level of control, over the folks with the guns and the largest (typically) portion of expenditures. Do they interfere with appropriations and systems, yeah to a degree, but this is just as much a military issue, as it is a civilian oversight concern, as both have things to gain or lose. Finding who or what is at fault, is usually a combination of both overstepping, then one or the other.

    In the end, they'll work through the natural bugs that crop up, the politicians will cave and settle on another, more amenable arrangement, usually with enough to satisfy the military's concerns. Jumping to conclusions on the poor outing at trials, just is amateurish fodder about this extremely complex and diverse systems and related expenditures. Can it be done better, sure, but the system is what it is and all navies have to contend with what they have. Is it different than what it was, well sure, but what isn't. In the end, they decide what they can afford, what they can fix and if it's worthy to deploy. Most navies aren't like the USN, in that we can afford to toss a program if it really screws the pooch, but most other navies will beat the dog until they can get it deployed, simply because they don't have the choice. I suspect in a couple of years, the Germans will sort it out, accept the compromises and still get this puppy, however it turns out, deployed. In fact, I'll bet the Germans will fair a far bit better than other countries, as their propensity to work though the engineering issues are commonly better than most, so eventual success is much more likely. Have faith folks, they'll figure it out and it'll be a fine ship, likely have most if not all of it's anticipated capabilities.
     
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  11. Wayne Grabow
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    Wayne Grabow Senior Member

    These sort of problems date back to at least the ship Vasa built in Sweden. Politicians designing ships; naval architects could probably do a better job of setting state policy.
     
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  12. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Politicians don't design ships, though do cover the purse strings and general project goal acceptance, in coordination with navy requirements and recommendations. NA's may do a better job of setting state policy, but their lack of experience and general understanding of something far outside their wheelhouse, suggest it would be a short career at the very least. The things that make good and bad politicians or good and bad NA's aren't mutually exclusive, but common across all industries.
     
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