Fully Electric Cargo Ship for Amazon River (Boat Design: 1st Post)

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by FullyElectricAM, Feb 27, 2016.

  1. rainmaking
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    rainmaking Junior Member

    But what is the planned size of the generator and what is its intended duty cycle? I thought it was only for backup when they couldn't charge from shore power for a few days.
     
  2. SamSam
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    SamSam Senior Member

    No. I only see where his battery recharging relies on solar panels, propeller generated hydro power, incinerating all the trash he picks up in the river in some kind of trash utilizing incinerator power plant and shore side plug ins to ac.

    All this thread is about is some new age millennial youngster bull **** that amounts to nothing, I am disappointed these type of things go as far as they do here and that anyone takes any of it seriously at all.

    A 'fully electric' cargo ship, which has never been done, full of 'researchers' busily researching and documenting, chugging around the Amazon picking up trash, showing all the natives how it's done in the civilized world ( I wonder where) while being somehow lucrative...all being crowd funded/panhandled on a tsunami of naive bull ****.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    The answer is clearly an on-board aquarium full of electric eels.
     
  4. Rastapop
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    Rastapop Naval Architect

    You haven't been limiting yourself to commenting only on the OP's plan - you made (incorrect) statements about diesel-electric in general.
     
  5. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    OK, I probably generalized too much. I should've been more explicit that it was within the limitations of what I understood the OP was asking for.
     
  6. rasorinc
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    rasorinc Senior Member

    Have you considered wood fired steam engine powering an electric engine with solar assist. wood easy to get where you are boating.
     
  7. BertKu
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    BertKu Senior Member

    FullyElectricAM, There always 50% pessimist in life and 50% who come up with solutions. Ignore the pessimist.
    Look only at reasonable solutions.
    1) download a free program "PropCalc" from Castle Marine. If they don't have it anymore on their website, give me a Private mail. This program may not be accurate, but gives you an idea what sort of power is required. Play around and enter various parameters.
    2) find out about the maximum upstream current. Should your project be viable, then you need at least to overcome the speed of the current before you can move upstream.
    3) As soon you plan to go more/higher than 48 Volt DC (direct current) your insulation has to be extremely good. DC is deadly when touched, special close with water around you. To convert first DC into AC is not very efficient in the project you want to tackle.
    4) 48 Volt and lower implies very high currents and thick copper cables to your motors or have a distributed battery-banks, if anybody propose to have more than 2, let say 8 x brushless motors.
    5) DC brushless motors need controllers, but the overall efficiency is good.
    6) A lithium bank of 16 AH 22.8 Volt batteries parallel and placed in serial would mean 100 battery packs = 36 Kwh , weight = 178 kg costs = 10.000 Euro. + transport cost i.e. 8 motors and propellers means : with 8 battery packs = 1424 kg, each with overheads for fuses, electronics etc probably 2,5 tons total. Your problem will be how to charge the batteries, what is available and what time does it take. This is all a basic calculation. Even if you make it 10 x larger it will not be very heavy like some forum members are suggesting.
    7) A brushless motor has its torque from basically 1 revolution upwards, while a diesel engine needs to speed up to 1600 revs before the maximum torque is achieved. You need less power with an electric motor then with a up to today's production diesel engines.
    8) You could consider brushed motors provided it has earth magnets.
    9) Brushed motors need only a PWM to control speed (Pulse Width Modulation)
    10) A permanent magnet DC motor has a higher overall efficiency. I know we get lots of arguments against the above statement.
    11) You have already electric airplanes, electric cars, boats etc. You just have to get your calculations correctly worked out. In 10 years time you probably can laugh at those few forum members, who are opposing your idea, instead of helping you to focus and to overcome obstacles.
    12) Anything in life can be achieved if you have done all your calculations correctly first.

    I will be flying to Europe in a few days time, thus if you need Propcalc, let me know this early. For Win10 you need to download a WIN app, but that will be automatically. You just have to wait a few minutes. For Win7 and lower, such as Windows XP , it runs straight away. At least then you have a vague idea what approx. power and propeller size you need. Bert
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2016
  8. SamSam
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    SamSam Senior Member

    13) It's other people's money, vague ideas and impractical plans are not a problem.
     
  9. BertKu
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    BertKu Senior Member

    Hi SamSAm, for that reason I gave him a tool to come to his senses or to find solutions. Yes, all research are basically based on vague idea's and often impractical and uses other people money. but if nobody give something a try and something new is not researched, we would be living way back in stone age. As long the sponsors are aware about their risks. Bert
     
  10. BertKu
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    Location: South Africa Little Brak River

    BertKu Senior Member

    FullyElectricAM, I had a quick look under Win10 at PropCalc and you need a minimum of 400 Horsepower, 300 kw (all motors) at 750 rpm with a gear ration of 6 : 1, at a large 3 bladed propeller and using 8 brushless motors (of which you should have 4 retractable) and 8 battery packs, each 36 kwh Lithium at a total of 60.000 Euro + transport cost, but it will only sail a low 4 knots. If your current is more than 4 knots when you go upstream, no go and you need at least 600 hp ( 450 kw) to do maybe 2 knots.) and only for 30 - 35 minutes. Charging can thus be done on a distributed way with 8 outlets.
    Going downstream naturally faster and as long you can. Upstream, if you have only half loaded much longer or faster.

    It can be done, as long you stay within the law.

    All the best with your project. Bert
     
  11. kerosene
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    kerosene Senior Member

    Bertku, why don't you elaborate this:

    Torque is one of two factors that make power. High torque alone means nothing. Power is what moves a boat - not torque. The "electric hp is more than diesel hp" claim is false. Also boat has no use for high low end torque. Spinning prop at low speed (relative to the design speed) requires little torque. If your engine/motor can produce more torque than is needed makes zero difference.
     
  12. kerosene
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    kerosene Senior Member

    And 60 kiloeuros or kilodollars must be the price of one 36 kWh battery unit. If you can get all 8 for that price Nissan Leaf team would be happy to hire you.
     
  13. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    There are a variety of Lithium Ion batteries and all have very different characteristics. It is akin to saying "wood". The design has to incorporate the chemistry and technology of the batteries to be efficient and have a reasonable long life.
     
  14. rasorinc
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    rasorinc Senior Member

    We have not heard from the original poster for a month now so maybe the subject is dead now.
     

  15. BertKu
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    BertKu Senior Member

    Hi there, kerosene. My wife always says, don’t argue, but make a bet.

    Thus if you CANNOT provide the OP with a diesel engine which can run 50 rpm with full power and torque, without STALLING while going down stream with the current and 6000 rpm when going against the current upstream , you BUY this OP for 45.000 Euro 8 x 36KWh packs, while he can do that with a sensors brushless motor at 50 rpm with near full maximum power and torque. You have to be quick, but Australia may have sold out by the time you have understood what a brushless motor is all about. The OP should pay than the freight cost from Australia to Brazil or otherwise for 60.000 Euro for you from China to Brazil.

    Let me alaborate. It has permanent magnets, which gives at 1 rpm or 6000 rpm the same magnetic field. 2ndly basically the full 30 Kw power is therefore at 1 rpm or 6000 rpm. (We ignore the higher inductance factor and only consider the Ohmic resistance at 1 rpm) thus the full current is flowing through the coils, but at a very short period of time. Thus your average power consumed is low, but the near full maximum power is there for a short time, let say 50 millisecond in every second. Thus for 50 millisecond you have basically full torque and 30Kw power. You will be going to lose the bet. Should you propose a slipping clutch, your diesel still has to consume nearly all the fuel. Not good.

    I don’t have the time anymore. I find that too many forum members are very negative and don’t come up with enough solutions. I signing off and have my nice trip to Europe. Bert
     
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