Fully Electric Cargo Ship for Amazon River (Boat Design: 1st Post)

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by FullyElectricAM, Feb 27, 2016.

  1. FullyElectricAM
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    FullyElectricAM Junior Member

    gonzo I appreciate your expertise in batteries, that is valuable data. I don't expect to get 30 years out of batteries, but Aircraft batteries do get this level of service when properly maintained. Not every cell of course, but out of more than 30% or 40% is possible. Even so, the ability to service the battery yourself over sealed batteries is much more desirable in my opinion. Of course if all I can do is Lithium Ion and it costs a ton of money, then that is what I will do.

    As for the million dollar comment. First I don't have a million dollars, I want you to assume I have a million dollars, the point is I can crowdfund for a decade if I have to. I have a considerable amount of donors but I can not say who or how much they are saying they are willing to donate for this project based on my other work. This is out of respect for their privacy as many have requested this so they do not get harassed for donations from other groups. Second, if I did have a million dollars in my pocket, why would I spend it on a Naval Architect when I can come here and build a paper boat? The PhD above has offered me the help I needed. People who have a million dollars don't spend money they don't have to, that is how they got their million dollars. Finally, if I had to spend the money on a Naval Architect I would, but I find there are often students or professionals willing to donate their time if they believe in a cause, and many many people believe in the cause.

    Once again, thank you for your expertise.
     
  2. Rastapop
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    Rastapop Naval Architect

    That is an inaccurate generalisation.

    With diesel-electric you can run your diesels exactly at peak all the time, no matter how fast your prop is spinning. In many cases this more than makes up for the losses from converting mechanical-electrical-mechanical.

    Here's diesel-electric tankers: http://www.nassco.com/products-and-services/comm-dc/bp-tankers.html

    Cargo ship: http://www.centralindustrygroup.com/maritime/shipbuilding/delivered-projects/jaguar-cig-6000-gc-e/

    And it's not just efficiency where diesel-electric can improve bottom lines, they can save a lot of valuable space also. Here's a study by DNV of a turbine-electric 20,000 TEU box carrier that frees up 300 slots compared to a conventionally propelled vessel: https://www.dnvgl.com/Images/Gas Tech Würsig_2015-10_web_tcm8-45310.pdf

    FullyElectricAM, here's something for you, in case you haven't seen it - a fully electric 80m ro-ro ferry: http://www.maritime-executive.com/article/worlds-first-electrical-car-ferry-in-operation
    It sounds like you're badly in need of an NA, I suggest you try to talk to cmckesson about his idea of having some of his students work on your idea.
     
  3. FullyElectricAM
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    FullyElectricAM Junior Member

    Thank you for the link Rastapop! That is going straight into the archive for in production models of electric boats in operation. Feel free to join me or just follow the page in my sig if you ever want to submit any other articles like this directly. And I am definitely going to reach out to Dr. McKesson today!
     
  4. David Cooper
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    David Cooper Senior Member

    One expensive experiment which no one else can copy isn't going to change the world, and it won't even change things locally. What you really want to do is look further ahead and try to find a way of setting something up that everyone else can use too. Faster-charging battery technology will likely be available in ten years, and this could allow for much less battery to be carried if there are more charging points available up and down the river, so getting that infrastructure in place will be vital. You will then wear out the batteries more quickly, but that's an advantage as you'll always be replacing them with better ones sooner instead of being repeatedly stuck with old technology for much longer stretches of time. With more charging opportunities, a lower initial cost and the ability to use lighter boats, that would open things up for many other people to follow your lead and switch to electric power.

    There's still a problem with where the power's going to come from though, because transferring it to a power station far away isn't necessarily a gain for the environment and may even make things worse. Solar power on land where the trees have already gone and the soil is too poor in quality for sustained agriculture may be part of the solution though.
     
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  5. JosephT
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    JosephT Senior Member

    This should be feasible provided you carefully consider the service area of the proposed ferry. If it's totally electric you'll need to factor in the remote charging stations along the river much like Tesla has done with their pure electric cars.

    e.g.
    https://www.teslamotors.com/destination-charging

    These charging stations can be sourced from hydro-electric, solar, wind, coal, or other sources of electricity (renewable seems to be your goal). If a charging stations is not feasible for whatever reason then you'll need to think about a hybrid concept that incorporates an auxiliary generator to re-charge while under way.

    The Siemens electric drive motors are definitely seeing increased use in larger boats. Good luck with your project. You'll definitely want to work with an NA with experience in electric/hybrid propulsion systems.
     
  6. JosephT
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    JosephT Senior Member

  7. FullyElectricAM
    Joined: Feb 2016
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    FullyElectricAM Junior Member

  8. FullyElectricAM
    Joined: Feb 2016
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    FullyElectricAM Junior Member

    Here is a question: Can a plastic or composite propeller lower the revolving weight and thus the required torque to move the boat and make it more efficient?
     
  9. Heimfried
    Joined: Apr 2015
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    Heimfried Senior Member

    Yes.

    Yes, but only a few seconds every time the propellor is increasing its rotation speed.

    After short accerelation phase the required torque depends not on the revolving weight (more correctly spoken: the mass moment of inertia).

    Most likely not.
     
  10. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    Composite props are pretty questionable in rivers. We tried the a few times on the Mississippi and pretty quickly ran into crap that sheared off the blades.
     
  11. WestVanHan
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    WestVanHan Not a Senior Member

    **Purely to perhaps educate someone else who may be looking into investing in this**

    It is annoying-but not surprising-that when spending other people's money,the laws of physics and business are often ignored by the spenders.

    Quickly looked it up,and the data I could find is about 1000 hp to move the 200 ton freighters. Assuming 1000hp for emergency,assume 700hp at slow speeds. Stumble's guesstimate was correct.

    So,let's be kind and assume only 700 hp:
    -700 hp = 520,000 watts.
    -using the good old Watts=Amps x Volts, he wants 48 volts so that's 10,800 amps.
    -he wants to run 24/7 for 5 days (7200 minutes) so he'd need a (laughing and having a hard time typing this BTW) useable total 1,300,000 amps@ 48VDC.

    So look at:
    http://lifelinebatteries.com/products/marine-batteries/gpl-l16t-2v/

    Check out the discharge rates......recall that he needs 7200 minutes....and suddenly I'm done with this foolishness and need a drink.

    West-over and out.
     
  12. cmckesson
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    cmckesson Naval Architect

    Just to clarify or complete WestVanHan's arithmetic:

    That's 1,300,000 Amp-HOURS, or 62,400 kilowatt-hours

    An 82 lb battery (lead acid, Trojan t-1275 ( http://www.trojanbattery.com/product/t-1275/ )) stores 1.99 kWh, so we need 31,357 of those, totaling 1160 tonnes.

    Of course, that will scale linearly with power, so if it takes 1400 hp then it means double that much lead, and if it takes on 70 hp then it's one tenth as much.

    Chris McKesson
     
  13. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    Scrap metal pirates will target the ship !
     
  14. Rastapop
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    Rastapop Naval Architect

    The electric catamaran ferry I linked to earlier is 80 metres long, and 20 metres wide (far, far larger than the vessel being discussed here).
    It travels at between 9 and 10 knots, and does that with 900 kW (1200 hp) of propulsive power.

    So I suspect the kind of numbers being thrown about, by the post I'm quoting here for example, could be way off reality. (1000hp to propel this much smaller vessel at 8 knots? Non sequitur.)

    That being said, I don't believe at all that an electric boat with 5 days between charges is currently feasible. The electric ferry above gets a small recharge every 20 minutes when it docks, and a full recharge every night, and it's carrying 10 tons of batteries (admittedly it is of course a far larger vessel that will require more power to move).
     

  15. cmckesson
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    cmckesson Naval Architect

    Exactly right Rastapop. The keys to feasibility will be:

    1: An extremely low drag hull
    2: Frequent charging

    My ideas on #2 for this mission include solar PV of course, but also such things as anchoring over night and allowing the props to trail in the river current to regenerate.

    By pursuing both lines of reasoning to their extremes I do believe this mission to be feasible, although I have not attempted to complete a design at this time.
     
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