french style sailing barge

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by msaxton, Feb 1, 2014.

  1. msaxton
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    msaxton Junior Member

    I have also shortened the cabin to 16', i can live with that, (I'm a minimalist) which brings the mast back 4', the leeboards are centered 5' back from the mast then which is just rearward of being centered along the length of the boat, is this good placement?
     
  2. pdwiley
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    pdwiley Senior Member

    Yeah. When (not if) you hit something, it really ruins your day if you also rip off your rudder....

    PDW
     
  3. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    the mast and lee boards are place based on a number of factors that also included the rudder placement and size, subsurface hull profile, size and shape of the sail, amoung others.

    If the mast will be rigged with a cutter set-up, or a large jib, than about halfway back works, if you will use a small or no jib, or a large cat sail, than the mast has to be further forward. the location of the lee boards depends on where the the center of effort of the full sail configuration is located. So you have to choose a sail size and configuration before you place the mast and lee board location.
     
  4. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    Considering the intended use of the boat I would want to be sure the bottom was happy with being aground.

    Inshore very shallow water is less crowded , for anchoring especially , so the ability to take the ground with ease might be more useful than theoretical windward ability.

    Many AICW opening bridges are not at all friendly to a boat under sail.
     
  5. Mike Nickerson
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    Mike Nickerson Junior Member

    If the sides are 2' high, on a fairly heavy boat, you will not have 2' of "freeboard". Freeboard is the amount of hull extending above the water line. if your flat bottom vessel draws 18" to 20" of water, you will only have between 6" to 4" of freeboard. That is not nearly enough as you will heal at least that much under sail, let alone dealing with large ship wakes. I would be shooting for at least 2' or more of freeboard in the stern (with more forward).

    Also your reduced beam (down to 8' at the sole) is a concern to stability. You might want to consult one of the Marine Engineers on this forum, as I'm thinking you need every inch of the originally planned 10' beam.
     
  6. SaugatuckWB
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    SaugatuckWB Junior Member

    Good start. I like the stern. Here's some thoughts:

    1. Increase the freeboard a bit. I'd say to 3' or a bit more. Then you can add some sheer like the boats in the photos and still maintain enough freeboard in the middle. With only 2' of freeboard, remember that 6" or 8" will be below the waterline. Also,if the stern sweeps up a little higher, the deck in the cockpit can be higher making visibility over the house better. The house can also be lower if the hull is deeper (more freeboard).

    2. Like I said, I like the stern sloped up with the keel carried back to the transom. Its different than the French barges but looks better. It does present some problems. You'd have less buoyancy which would increase your draft a bit. Also, thinking about the rudder and propulsion is important at the beginning. I would use an outboard in a well, like a few of the pictures show. But, with the keel as drawn you'd have to offset the outboard to one side or the other. Then the keel would interfere with the flow of water from/to the prop if you were using the outboard to steer while under power. This would particularly be a problem in close quarters when the advantage of using the prop thrust to steer is most needed, especially on a boat like this. If you used the rudder to steer under power as well as while sailing then it may just unbalance the boat some. Having the upswept stern would keep the motorwell out of the water reducing turbulence and drag (as would the upswept stern itself) and place the prop behind the transom which is better for maneuverability. One option might be twin keels so the motor wouldn't be offset, but if they were carried back to the transom it might cause the same problems with water from the prop being directed against the keel or with the suction. With twin keels you could also have twin rudders.

    2. If you want to keel to help with leeway while sailing I think it would have to be deeper and have the depth carried forward farther. But maybe you should rely on the leeboards for that if you don't want to increase the draft with a deeper keel. Twin keels would make beaching it more stable. But would add some drag
     
  7. SaugatuckWB
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    SaugatuckWB Junior Member

    Also,

    8' beam is a bit narrow. I'd think about how often you'd really trailer something like this. It's going to be heavy, and trailers aren't cheap. And if you go wider, wide load permits are not a big hassle or very expensive. I've moved several large boats and its as easy as filling out some forms, paying a nominal fee, and then having flags, lights, signs. This is in Michigan, if you had to deal with multiple states it might be more difficult. Anyway, a wider beam (like 10' that was posted above) would be better for stability, but also for other reasons. A 10x16 foot house has the same area as the originally planned 8x20. On the other hand, you could have an 8' wide house and have 1' decks along each side. Or a 9' wide house which would give bit more space inside and still allow 6" decks. 6" doesn't sound like much but that's what I have and it allows you to go forward using a hand hold or rail along the top of the house. It also gives you a place to mount cleats, and chainplates and shrouds without interference from the house walls. One note on house walls, have them angled in just a bit, otherwise they look like they are leaning out for some reason. The French barges in the pics all have side decks.
     
  8. SaugatuckWB
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    SaugatuckWB Junior Member

    For mast and leeboard placement, you need to decide what kind of rig you are going to have. For a square sail I would study the photos to find where they placed the mast. Just by looking it seems that the placement ranges from the middle to well forward of that. I'd think a bit forward of middle, but it might no be that critical. The leeboards would be more critical and I think that you should make them so you can move them around after some trials. The mast would be harder to move later, but not impossible. You just have to plan ahead and build in an alternate mast step and the associated framing.


    One more idea. If you needed more cabin space, you could have the 8' or 9' x16' house as drawn and then add a much lower house in front of that. Maybe just 2' above the deck/sheer. The mast could be at the front of the taller house and go through this lower house. If your hull was 2' deep, that would give you maybe 3'6" of head room, enough for putting a double bunk in there. This house could also be narrower than the other house, maybe 5' or 6' by 7' long. This would still leave plenty of deck space at the bow and won't present any problems with the sail
     
  9. SaugatuckWB
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    SaugatuckWB Junior Member

    I found the plans for Rufus in Boatbuilder Magazine Sept/Oct 2000 issue. The magazine quit publishing quite a few years ago.

    Perhaps you could use the scantlings to help with your design as the hull is just about the same. It has the complete drawings to build it in the magazine.

    It also has rudder and leeboard dimensions and lots of other little details to give you ideas.
     
  10. msaxton
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    msaxton Junior Member

    I searched the web, cant find anything on it, or are you talking about getting my hands on a paper copy?
     
  11. SaugatuckWB
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    SaugatuckWB Junior Member

    Yeah, I looked too and it seems that Boatbuilder totaly disappeared. I'm scanning my copy right now and could email them to you.
     
  12. frank smith
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    frank smith Senior Member

    This is from Buelher's site "Rufsu"
    http://www.georgebuehler.com/Rufus.html
    The plans are cheap enough. I would agree with some others that 10' beam is closer to what you are looking if you want carry a sail.
    I still think Tad Roberts Harry 26 stretched to 30-32 would make a hell of a barge.
    I might work it up in Freeship and take a look.
     
  13. SaugatuckWB
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    SaugatuckWB Junior Member

    Yes it is
     
  14. SamSam
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    SamSam Senior Member

    You can see these two plans here... http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/propulsion/do-they-exist-articulating-paddle-wheel-19475.html

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    They might give you ideas on construction, etc. The two hull shapes are almost identical, I'm thinking if the small one was for sail, the bigger one would work also.

    The 9' x 30' boat only has 9" of draft, so don't get carried away with 3' sides. Look at the pictures you have and estimate the freeboard (which is the height of the sides above the waterline). You don't need a whole lot of freeboard, depending on how you build the boat i.e. closed decks, wide gunnels, batter boards etc.

    This site might also give you ideas, not on a specific boat, but how you might go about building what you want. http://www.svensons.com/boat/

    The drop down lee boards look like a problem compared to ones mounted on the sides that swing up. When you hit something with a drop down one, it's an event, when you hit something with a swinging one, it's an inconvenience.
    An inboard drop down can leak, the outboard one won't. They can be removed for traveling.

    Your rudder needs to extend in front of the rudder post to 'balance' it and make steering easier. Maybe 10% or so in total area.

    It isn't that hard to add some flare to the sides and it can alter the look and feel of the boat a lot. It also isn't that hard to round the transition of the bottom and the two end slopes, when they are straight lines coming to corners like that....that's kind of for cement mixing tubs.

    So what kind of skills do you have and what kind of tools? What materials will you use? Plywood?
     

  15. msaxton
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    msaxton Junior Member

    Alot of good information, thanks all!
    after reading these and thinking about it most of the day, i decided on some changes.
    Since I will be living on this, I probably wont care so much if it is trailerable, therefore I am going to go back to the 10' beam with a 9' x 14' or 16' cabin.
    I also decide to go with the swinging leeboards due to the complexity and additional weight of the drop downs ( Samsam convinced me) as well as changing the rudder to having a percentage forward of the post.
    Love those paddlewheelers, had considered building one of those at one time.
    I'm not sure what the draft would be, guessing at this point judging by other similar crafts that it will be somewhere between 8-10"
    Now, as far as construction specifics here is what im thinking:
    -Hull to be two layers of 1/4" ply offsetting joints and epoxy glue together fiberglass over
    -Hull frame work to be 4"x4" timber on the outer chines and cross members with 2" dimensional lumber for the inner longitudals.
    -Cabin framing to be 2"x4" flatfaced for support of the roof, the 2x4's will be sandwiched within an SIP panel of 1/2" ply exterior and 1/4" ply interior with 1 1/2" closed cell foam board, all glued together ( i know i could go for 2x2's in the wall or just a ply/foam/ply SIP, but I want the additional strength since the roof will be walked on)
    Front wall of cabin will most likely be framed with 4x4 lumber to better withstand the pressures of the mast
    Roof framing undecided as of yet, as far as low slope or slightly rounded, im kind of partial to the slightly rounded.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2014
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