french style sailing barge

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by msaxton, Feb 1, 2014.

  1. msaxton
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    msaxton Junior Member

    The more i read about and look at the difference between a square sail and a single smaller spinnaker style sail the more i am leaning towards a spinnaker.
    Ie: Is it true that a square sail while having many lines to control, with yard and volume up top provides more heeling power and potential at the top, whereas a spinnaker without a top yard provides less healing area and potential at the top and more area down low where it does less heeling harm and provides more power?
    But, I also read that a spinnaker is harder to control without luffing, so still unsure which would be better.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2014
  2. msaxton
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    msaxton Junior Member

    S o, it took enough searching, but finally found that the actual name for the style of boat im looking for is called a "Gabare", attached is a really nice example. This one appears to have had the sailing mast removed as you can still see the pivot point for the mast at the peak of the cabin. I do believe this will be the build for me, now to continue searching for a plan.
     

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    Last edited: Feb 3, 2014
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  3. msaxton
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    msaxton Junior Member

    Attached Files:

  4. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    that is a very attractive and practical barge style boat. I would not go with square rig, they are obsolete and not very efficient. You might consider a modern junk rig, they are simple to handle and easy to self design, uses a cantalever mast, so rigging is simple. It would also look good on such a hull design.

    Otherwise, keep it simple. it be easier to solo. perhaps a simple cat rig.
     
  5. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    >so still unsure which would be better.<

    If you wish to lash the rudder or use a wind vane underway the square rig would be the choice,spinnakers are nervous.

    >not go with square rig, they are obsolete and not very efficient.<

    The Plots of Lord Nelson shoe his sq rigged fleet tacked in 90deg .

    The rigging advances of the past few hundred years should allow 80deg , about what most cruisers need to climb up wave faces, although the boat shown does not look like an ocean going vessel.
     
  6. msaxton
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    msaxton Junior Member

    No, not ocean going, just to be used on the Great loop including ICW. I'm not overly concerned with the degree for tacking, the sail would just be used when the wind is right, otherwise will be powered by small outboard. Not too concerned with speed, it's just to be a slow take it easy river cruiser for retirement. My kind of retirement: just go where the boat and my desires take me, in no hurry to be anywhere at any specific time.
     
  7. msaxton
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    msaxton Junior Member

    Well, so far no luck finding any plans other then small drawings/pics, so I think i will be winging it, to a degree. Going to build a small scale model first, going to the hobby store today to look at miniature lumber and plywood, hopefully get started on building the model very soon.
     
  8. Hampus
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    Hampus Junior Member

  9. SaugatuckWB
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    SaugatuckWB Junior Member

    But these are nothing like the original idea and not remotely in the "easy to build" category. So why propose something like that?
     
  10. msaxton
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    msaxton Junior Member

    Yes exactly, that dutch tjalk holds little appeal to me personally, and definately out of the easier build category.
    Today I picked up some graph board and paper as well as all of the miniature scale frame material for modeling the hull anyway, will get the rest for the topsides when i need it. Decided I can most likely make an LOA of 32' work for me, will draw it out and get it fine tuned before i waste any wood on the model.
     
  11. rasorinc
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    rasorinc Senior Member

    msaxton, see my posting # 2 40' boat mooring in London same catagory as this. Might give you some ideas. Stan

    here is that posting. Hello George and welcome to the forum. I wish I was in your shoes and owned a slip but I'm 72 and have not found a way to reverse that. I'm building a 31' wood hull boat for a live aboard and to tow around the US and it's rivers and lakes and close in off shore waters. the beam is 8' inside and 8'-6" outside which can be towed anywhere.
    I'm having an Outboard engine and that is a good idea for you and your boat and less money then an inboard. The hull will be fiberglassed over then painted.
    You do not tells us your skill level so I'm going to speak in general terms. You might be better off finding a used boat that fits the size you need and fix it up. My core living area is 8' x 14' with 6'-8" head room and R-15 insulation in the ceiling out if 3-1" layers of stryofoam which also qualifies as flotation. Up front I have 2-36" by 21" seats facing forward and down the starboard side a 48" desk and a 7' x 3' sofa/ bunks beds. the backrest swings up to become the upper bed. Port side is a 3' x3' bath shower combo with a corner toilet. Then a 24" space for a 7 CF refrigerator. a 24" sink area. a 20" range/oven and a 28" washing machine. room between is 24" and 36". Forward in the bow area is a full Queen bed. I will carry 97 gallons of fuel, 80 gallons of water with room for much more. My waste tank area will carry up to 97 gallons..I have a rear deck area that is covered and is 8' x 8'. I will have full heat and AC. This design took awhile and represents the smallest living space I can enjoy, that has everything including tons of storage, floor freezer and much more. Just some ideas for you. Stan
    PS I will have onboard a 3,000 watt generator and 3-28 pound propane bottles, out of sight in the transom area.



    george
    __________________
    Wood Lasts Generations
     
  12. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member


    On a totally different topic, did they ?

    I thought they came west from windward, and turned north.

    I cant find anything on the net showing the courses sailed, but those square riggers had trouble getting to windward at best, let alone tacking to any meaningful degree.

    Let me know if you have any further information.
     
  13. SaugatuckWB
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    SaugatuckWB Junior Member

    I've often wondered about the efficiency of square rigged vessels and doubted the detractors claims. Looking around I found this paper "The Potential Performance of Ancient Mediterranean
    Sailing Rigs" @ http://www.academia.edu/490286/The_Potential_Performance_of_Ancient_Mediterranean_Sailing_Rigs#

    Its a rather interesting comparison of single square rigged v. lateen rigged vessels, that may be more relevant to this discussion than looking at what we generally picture when some one says a square rigged: a ship or brig for instance.

    To sum it up, this paper finds very little difference in windward performance between the two, and suggests square rigs sailing well above 90 degrees, as close as 60 degrees under ideal conditions (moderate winds and calm seas) that may be just what would be experienced on the rivers/canals that the French boats are used on (or the ICW and Great Circle rivers).
     
  14. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Unless a boat has a decent keel, upwind performance is severely compromised.

    The rounded hulls of historic ships were not suitable for upwind performance in a lot of cases.

    Its nothing about square rig 'detractors'. Its well know that many square riggers had to beat for weeks to stay in the same place before favourable winds came up - as many replicas in modern times have found.

    According to "Sailing and Seamanship" ( US Coast Guard Axil. ), "This is a major improvement over the old square-rigged sailing vessels of the age of sail. They could only sail about 200 of the 360 degrees (of a circle)". Meaning that they could go to weather, but only by (about) 10 degrees. And if they weren't gentlemen.

    Chapman's only comment to how square-rigged vessels go to weather is "not well".
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2014

  15. msaxton
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    msaxton Junior Member

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