Freighter Canoe Performance

Morning Wavewacker,

When I first bought the boat in 2006 I had asked the forum about outriggers/amas. At the time I was thinking to use the boat for a completely different purpose. Search "Stabilizing a Big Freighter Canoe" to see the short discussion. In my opinion, yes, I think you can add a set of outriggers.

Yes, I think you could easily design a tent for a freighter that started low up front and increased in height as one went further aft. You would want a zippered opening up front to access your ground tackle and to handle lines and what not.

Unless you mount a set of oars, you cannot paddle a boat this size for any distance, especially alone. We carry two paddles to beach the boat as the bottom shallows, to pull us up into shallow tributaries, and for general maneuvering alongside piers and in the locks. Alone, I find I can more easily move the boat by facing aft and paddling the boat astern, letting the length of it fishtail behind me. Otherwise, the faintest of breezes will carry the boat all over the place. I have not allowed for a rowing station on Odonata (I don't think I mentioned the boat's name before), though I have thought a lot about it. The easiest approach would be to drop and store away the tent, so one wouldn't have to be concerned about getting the oars under the tent and deployed somehow, as in a Bolger Dovekie. But then how do I store two 10 ft oars? I do indeed want an alternative means of propulsion (running out of gas three miles from the nearest marina cannot easily be resolved with two paddles). I think my best option is a sculling oar over the stern. The cabin can stay up, and I only have one oar to store. I've had a brief discussion with Shaw and Tenney about that.

This is a small tent, though it's quite roomy inside with sitting head room. Leaving a vent open, you can heat it pretty quickly with a candle on a frosty morning. Boiling a pot of water on the butane stove will make the space toasty quite quickly. I've been on the Connecticut river in mid November and been very comfortable.

We fittted a small aluminum deck over the bow, which affords a place to attach a substantial cleat for the anchor and for being towed, should that ever be necessary, a mount for the flagstaff and portable nav lights, and a cover for the ground tackle and other items stored below. You could make any style or size of hard deck you wanted to suit your needs.

This boat is probably too big to pull over a sandbar. The bare hull is 450 pounds. If you are alone, forget it.

Your questions, Wavewacker, are the kinds of questions that I hope a lot of folks will continue to ask about freighter canoes. Whether you buy one from a Scott Canoe dealer, or you build one, say one of Tim Marchetti's designs, you will end up with basically a big open hull that you can use straight up, immediately, or, with some ingenuity and fairly easy work, a hull that can be adapted fill a lot of roles.

There are limitations. The hulls are thin, so keep an good eye ahead and watch for rocks and floating limbs (though to read the threads about these boats in Alaskan and Canadian hunting forums you'd think the hulls are nearly indestructbile -- or at least quite easily repaired). Narrow boats roll a lot and you feel every wake and ripple, so you have to keep the weight down low and get used to it or you will spill your wine (my wife and I can both stand on the gunnel on the same side with plenty of reserve freeboard, so don't take this to mean you have to be overly worried about rolling over -- the biggest thing I worry about is the boat being swamped over the transom by a big overtaking wake, or while going astern -- really no more concern than with any other small boat). And you can reach a point quickly where what one wants a boat to do might best be addressed with a bigger and wider boat.

For around $4300 for a new Scott Hudson Bay 21 ready to go and maybe $1000 for a trailer, and say $1900 for an 8hp Tohatsu 4 stroke, your are in business. It's a lot of boat for the money.

Bing

 

Bing,
It will amaze you how well the stern will rise to the occasion of a stern sea if most of the weight is kept amidship. My Clipper has a small self bailing well aft as it has a narrow stern (made from a doubble end canoe mould). Emergency oars ..consider short oars or take-apart. I think for canoes (even large ones) 4-stroke OBs are too heavy. Like Timothy says on his thread the 2-stroke is so small it burns very little fuel and is much lighter (60lbs for 8hp). You can take the engine off and drag or carry the boat up the beach. No need to line out but it is a bit of work and in some situations it's worth it.

Easy Rider

 

Couldn't agree more, Easy Rider, especially about keeping the weight distributed so the boat sits flat on the water. The bad wake events have occured when we were beached and wake waves tripped on the shallows, breaking over the transom or side and into the boat, or when I wasn't paying attention and backed in to an incomming wake.

Maybe 10 foot oars are too long, but I know 8 footers are too short, as I've tried that size. The top of the coaming is too high above the water. The take apart I like, but I'm persuaded a sculling oar is the way to go in my case. Maybe the sculling oar can be broken down.

I hadn't thought about a 2-stroke, which at the time didn't seem attractive over a quiet, low odor, less polluting 4 stroke. I understand that 2-strokes are much cleaner and quieter now (there's probably hundreds of posts about this issue, and I have no experience to address the subject), so it would seem that new owners might seriously consider them. While I don't take the motor off the boat much, 98 lbs is a struggle when I do. I can see where removing the motor on the beach could be a good thing, though where you are camping ashore, we camp on the boat.

There are a lot of things to think about when fitting one of these freighter canoes out for a cruise. And it's all fun.

Bing

 

Bing and Easy Rider, I am seriously considering this concept. I have made several annoying posts, I'm sure, about my "need" to take a 420 pound dual sport motorcycle. I don't see the weight being a problem. but it's bulky and would need a method of loading and unloading. The CG of this bike is about 20" high. That is the real reason I was consering outriggers, just to keep water out of the cylinders, just in case. I can also bag it and water proof it. IS this feasibale for a freighter canoe?

As to your oars, can't they stay in the oar locks and latch off/tie off to the sides?

I'm not a designer or an engineer or a NA, I just use and enjoy boats. This site is providing an education that appears to be addictive, so I'm learning after about 50 years of being on lakes and rivers.

As to being pooped, I have seen some canvas decking that looks pretty nice. Good point as to the zippers at the bow. needs to be open enough to hop on and off too. It seem to me if I were crazy enough to take that into the gulf or ICW, that a full snap on cover with a cockpit opening would be appropriate. Like a giant kayak, could even have a skirt made to keep the splash out or from being pooped. Did I see something like that in an old picture over a lifeboat, with peoples heads poped up from a cover?

I will try to find that thread on outriggers. Thanks

 

Hi Wavewacker,

I'm not a boat designer either, but there are clearly many designers who frequent this forum. To get your questions addressed, maybe you should first just lay out what your design criteria are, rather than asking if this or that idea would work for you. I bet that when everyone knew exactly what you wanted to do, where you wanted to go, what your budget is, etc. (et cetera is a pretty long list if I understand the "design spiral" correctly), folks might offer some suggestions about what existing boat design for building, or an existing manufactured boat, could best fulfill your needs. My gut feeling is that you are asking too much of a typical freighter canoe, and I suspect that there is a more practical boat design out there for what you want to do. Maybe you should start a new post on the topic. I'd certainly be interested in seeing what you eventually come up with. Best wishes and much fun to you.

Bing

 

Wavewacker, I see that you are laying out your design criteria on other threads, which is great. Though having read some of the other threads you posted in, and more fully understanding what you want, I'd have to say that a freighter canoe is most likely not a good choice for you.

Bing

 

how big to freighter canoes get? Your 21 footer is big for a canoe, but it's still a small boat at 4' beam and 450 lb. Enough for a couple to camp cruise economically, but what if you throw in a couple of kids? A 30' x 6' should be big enough to sleep 4, and I'm guesstimating 2000 lb ready to go, so it'd still be easy to trailer, and economical with a 25-40 horse outboard. What do y'all think?

 

Srimes,
Search Clipper Canoes and see canoes to 41'. The really big canoes are not square stern but my 18' square stern (a Clipper) was made by putting a dam in the mould of a doubble end 20' freight canoe. It's a common practice w larger cruisers. I'll bet Clipper would make a one-off this way. Use a 36' mould w a dam 8' ahead of the stern and you've got an instant 28' freighter. Will not be cheap but they are very good at what they do. One could also cut down the extremely high (birch bark) style bow to something like Timothy's freighter.

Easy

 

Thanks Easy Rider and Bing. You'll see in other threads that I have reconsidered and I will probably drop the sailing requirement. Although I am willing to give up efficiency for function. I think my canoe was turning into a Pearl anyway. Think I'll get another Hobbie 16 or go to the 18', a good beach cat for my area, I'm just getting at the age now I don't really care to get wet everytime I go out!

 

Srimes,

There is a point where the cost of a really big freighter canoe and the conversion work one has to do to make it a river camper, will exceed the cost of other types of boats that might be more suited to what you want to do. If I thought I needed a 30 ft boat for mom, dad, and two teenagers, I wouldn't be looking at a freighter canoe.

However, if I had the money to do over, I would buy a Scott James Bay (about $6,300 for the bare hull), which is a tad larger than the Hudson Bay:

James Bay Specifications

Length 22'8" / 6.91 m
Gunwale Width 66" / 1.67 cm
Transom Width 44" / 1.12 cm
4" Waterline Width 45" / 1.14 cm
Depth at Centre 25" / 64 cm
Bow Height 39" / 1 m
Stern Height 23" / 58 cm
Rocker Moderate
Hull Shape Flat
Straight Sides
Keel Triple
Optimum Capacity 3590 lb / 1628 kg
Weight: Fiberglass 450 lb / 204 kg (I think this boat is heavier -- may be a misprint at the Scott website)

That extra 20 inches in length and 10 inches in width would have allowed for better ergonomic design of the fore and aft bench seats, thus a little more lounging comfort, and permitted some of the cooking stuff to remain in place for the night (as in any small boat, the endless shifting of gear around to get at other gear is a pain, so anything you can do to lessen that effort is amazingly welcome). To easily make 7 to 10 mph in a James Bay, I think a 9.9hp would do, though a 15hp wouldn't hurt. The larger boat wouldn't require a bigger tow vehicle, and no more expense to fit it out.

If you want two people to lounge, sleep, cook, and go to the loo aboard a freighter canoe, in comfort, and weathertight from rain, wind, sun, and mosquitos, my experienced opinion is that a 22 to 24 footer is just right. Any smaller and you will experience some regrets about the size of the boat, and any larger you probably would be better off in some other kind of boat.

The Hudson Bay 21 is a great boat for single person river camper, and OK for two, but not ideal. We also frequently entertain our friends on our boat with an evening dinner cruise for four. The Hudson Bay is marginally OK for that. The James Bay would be perfect for two on a cruise, and real sweet for a picnic cruise for four. Or you could build and adapt one of Tim Marchetti's designs; he tells me he is indeed working on his 24 footer.

My opinion, by the way, is based on the conditions to which I am accustomed to: the NY State Barge Canal (Erie and Champlain and tributary canals), slow rivers like the Hudson and Connecticut, and big lakes. If you are up in the Yukon or other areas that you have to negotiate white water or make portages, I don't have a lot to offer. See hunting and fishing forums about freighter canoes.

On the other hand, if you want to cruise waters similar to those my wife and I do, if you are used to tent camping and like it, if you want a capable boat that won't cost a fortune to buy and fit out and that will be extremely economical and easy to maintain and safe to operate, a river camper conversion of a freighter canoe might be a good bet. I'll be happy to share all I know with anyone who wants to give one a go.

By the way, for those of you close to northern New England, call Barry Davis at Two Rivers Canoe and Tackle at 207-746-8181 or at
bigcanoe@midmaine.com. He can tell you all about the 40 or so freighters he sells each year. And there are other dealers on the Scott website:

http://scottcanoe.com/


Bing

 

I took a look at the Clipper Canoe website. Great boats. However, you'll notice that the big canoes have a very narrow beam; they don't get to 60 inches wide until they are 34 ft long. The Scott HB 21 is 52 inches wide and the Scott JB 23 is 66 inches, for comparison. If you wanted to make one of those big Clippers a sleep-cook-potty-lounge aboard with a canvas tent, I think the cost for what you'd end up would be excessive for only maginal additional capacity as compared to a standard and beamier 21 to 24 foot freighter. But I think that big sweep up bow would look dramatically swell on a river camper.

By the way, I made a mistake earlier. The Scott HB 21 is 250 lbs bare boat and the Scott James Bay is indeed 450 lbs.

 

Sorry about adding this old thread, but I am wondering if the Hudson Bay is suitable for 2 adults, 2 kids in protected ocean inlets and big lakes. I am in Canada and can buy and ship one for a reasonable price, but impossible to try it first.

How would it compare to say a 16' Lund?

 

Hi canuckjgc,

By Lund, I assume you mean their line of aluminum and fiberglass sport fishing boats. It depends on what you want to do with your boat as to whether a wide, short fishing boat is better for you than a long narrow motor canoe. If you want to do river camping similar to what my wife and I have been doing, you can use either boat, but the freighter canoe will have much better fuel economy. Lunds are all planing hulls, so you'll need to hang a lot more horse power over the transom; they would be terrible going slow for any distance. Motor canoes are more suited for slow speed, quieter, enjoy the scenery kind of cruises. While you can easily power up a Hudson Bay to get on plane, it's a hull that works, in my opinion, better at displacement speeds. For the same capacity in weight and volume, I think the Hudson Bay would be much cheaper to buy, outfit, and operate for your family, and would be a good way to go, unless you wanted hi speed and didn't care about the cost of fuel. For your neck of the woods, I would check out some of the hunting and fishing forums for Canada, searching for "freighter canoe." The guides up there are better versed in commerical, utilitarian uses for the Hudson Bay, and will amaze you with some of thier bang it up and beat it up stories of these boats in the Canadian back country. If you decide you want a river camper, send me a personal message and I can advise you on a few points to consider.

Bing

 

Thanks very helpful. I was considering a 16' aluminum Lund skiff with a 40hp. I'm wondering how the two compare with regard to seaworthiness and sea handling?

My assumption is that the greater beam of the Lund (72") and the deeper V means it wins on both fronts, but I'm not exactly sure.

I do like the lower hp requirements of the HB as well as the shallow draft for beaching. I'm also assuming a beach launch is possible with a heavy duty cart, whereas the Lund requires a boat launch given the hull and outboard weight.

We like to explore, beach, camp and fish in protected ocean inlets and large lakes. Though careful with the weather we could be caught in a 3' chop so I want the safest skiff for those conditions.

Is the HB stable enough for kids and adults to walk around when it is not full of gear? I understand stability increases with a load but we won't necessarily have that much gear every time out.

 

This is the most sensible, practical, fun boat I've seen on this site in a long time. Congratulations on getting "it" right. It being the right boat for you.