Freestanding

Hi rumars, I was rambling before reading your post

And you are right to question my research. Do you mean big heavy catboat masts? Im sure you are right....I will read your link I appreciate it.

 

People disagree every time I say this but, I think you can put more sail on a freestanding rig.
I know....."rediculous"
But check this....a windsurfer will tell you she has a favorite sail that can handle the most conditions. The sail will be big so it is fast when wind is light, yet it will flex off juice at the top when it becomes overpowered.

 

How do I describe this?.....I don't reduce high sail aspect because the mast will flex....I actually go taller, my rig is 14" taller than spec rig. You must add this height to compensate for the guy with stays. You must add sq ft to the sail. He is going to beat you hard to windward,
but you are going to be faster everywhere else....he's got cables....doesn't know what a broad reach is....you are going to roast him downwind.

 

A lot of uninformed assumptions in this post don't you think? Why post, if you're going to ignore easily researched facts, methods and data, instead regurgitating supposition.

Yes, birdsmouth spars have tapered staves, if interested in light end results. Those rejecting wooden masts haven't done the research either. Up to certain sizes, wooden birdsmouth spars are lighter than other materials, unless you toss in costly high modulus fabrics or other materials.

Birdsmouth spars aren't heavy unless you don't do the work or the math. These spars aren't particularly labor intensive, though obviously more so than a simple aluminum extrusion.

There are several online stave dimension calculators available, plus many "how to's", though admittedly some having less than desirable techniques and assembly Sorting through the good and bad of it can be a challenge for the novice, but this is mostly true about anything online. The hard part is selecting an appropriate diameter, for the area you're working with, which is a little more involved than the backyard builder may have the skill sets for.

I'm not even going to comment of the latest ridiculousness as it can't be logically defended.

 

I went to a couple sailmakers before finding one who said what you need to hear. I said, "I want you to make me a fully battened sail for a freestanding mast." He answered correctly. "First bring me the mast, then we'll talk."
That's the guy you want. The sailmaker works to compliment the flex of your rig. He will need your rig to do that.
I think he was impressed but all he would say is "that mast is really stiff"

 

Careful par. I'm not saying you guys are wrong.
I am just throwing things out there for comment.....why be like that?

 

You are wise I know, not challenging you par. You were the first guy in 30 years who talked about wood masts and knew what he was saying. NOT questioning you.
Isn't a square section much stronger than a round section of the same size?

 

Great.....birdsmouth masts can be made to taper to 5/16 at the top. Easy to have internal halyards. Carry a foresail. Weigh 25 lbs. Fully loaded with halyards.
I do believe a guy could make one but I don't think it exists. And if you matched everything but made it round it wouldn't be as strong.

 

Dang par...why post? In order to make something new....to try something new.
Why don't you explain to me why some windsurfing rigs can handle a much larger range than others? Then explain why that same effect doesn't apply to a sailboat?

 

Allright, I will stop but I wish there was some consideration, some open-mindedness about different ways.
I think the lowly box-mast is immediately discarded without a thought. Light, strong freestanding is the goal.
Birdsmouth looks the best, but I wonder if diameter would need to increase vs square.
One other thing....I was able carry side profile thickness higher relative to the ends (the staves taper similarly but the profile becomes slightly rectangular.
I carried fore and aft strength just a little higher relative. I did so because of my previous masts. (Counterintuitive to my next comment)
If you are going to snap a stick.....it will happen low....and the biggest load I can put on the mast is when stuck or hardly moving.....from dead behind.
A great thing about no stays is your angle for downwind is perfect. And this is when I can achieve the highest blast on the mast....no heeling, just straight yank.

And seriously, if anyone has pictures of freestanding masts or knows how to build the best type, I would love to know.
I have always hoped to build a better mast.
And by the way, I found when tapering staves in thickness......the staves become more flexible away from the planed side...because you are terminating grain I would guess. So planed = inside of mast. Not as strong to taper staves from the outside.

 

Well, yes I read that birdsmouth masts have tapered staves. But not in thickness. (Unless its done from the outside?) And calculators are great but freestanding.....how do I transition from maststep to partner, to boom?
I want to be nearly solid, then i want to soften until hollow. I need to handle the boom too. My mast can taper narrower and the wood get thinner as I rise.

 

Freestanding you do realize the answers to your questions are obtainable with a quick online search do you? In order to have a solid section inside a birdsmouth mast you build a tapered plug (also birdsmouth). Booms can be tapered on both ends. And if you want to decrease the wall thickness you plane it down on the outside. The ideea that it makes a difference if it's done on the outside vs. the inside is as PAR said "not logically defendable". But you can certainly do it on the inside if you want to. In fact you can build a spar however you like. Birdsmouth round or elliptical, square, split and hollowed out tree, etc. the only thing that matters is that the underlying calculation is sound.

 

I call bs. Where are the pictures and all the freestanding birdsmouth masts?
I've built a few freestanding masts in this range, has anyone else?
I want to learn something from someone who has done it. a spar builder, not somebody taking shots.
I'm not trying to insult you or anyone. First it was a chorus of "don't do it, it will never work, you'll poke your eye out, I"ll believe it when I see it"
So I built the ******** thing and now instead of any interest about weights? or how did I build it? or why did I choose square or how did I do internal? Or what makes you say that?..........
Instead, you tell me it doesn't work and that everybody builds birdsmouth freestanding and that it's easy to research and of course I could just hollow out a log.
And to say which side of the stave is tapered is "indefensible"......sorry, draw a little sketch......or better yet, grab a 1"×2"....taper one side.... then bend it.....which side is going to break first and tell me why? Please do it.....it will break on the tapered side every time!
I'm a professional woodworker......I'm not wanting to prove my mast is best.....I'm wanting to learn from someone who has done it.
I'm calling bs. I hope someone gets on here and proves me wrong. Can anybody point to a freestanding mast they built?....I would love to hear from you.

 

Why would anyone want to debate what is relatively easily obtainable, with a long history of success, with someone in who can't grasp or is unwilling to learn the engineering and known construction methods of it? Your assumptions aren't based in reality or fact, so exposing them just shows what you don't know and tends to spread information that is wholly incorrect. Try building a 48" long birdsmouth and figure out how to taper in both directions, what a swallowtail might be and why thy're necessary. This simple lesson with teach you much more, than any dissertation someone might offer for you here.

 

Can't find even one?
I don't want to debate you...I want to discuss freestanding masts with someone who's built them.
That guy and I are going to share thoughts that are meaningful to us.
How much does yours weigh?
How tall and how did you "soften" from hard to hollow?
What about grains per inch. ? (Herreshoff recommended 8 to 12 grains per inch for all spars.)
I've built with 8 grain per inch.....it is so light isn't it?
But the mast I made is 14-16....

Knock it off! There is plenty we could learn if we could hear from someone who has done it.
And challenging my woodworking skills just makes me smile.

Freestanding, fully loaded, 22' long, carries 120sq ft and a foresail. Weighs 25 lbs.

Has anybody got a picture of anything?