FOILER 1 Grand Prix

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Feb 22, 2006.

  1. RHough
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    RHough Retro Dude

    Not hardly. If the conditions that suit both boats are a narrow range it proves nothing. It only proves that you have two or more narrowly focused boats and one is faster than the other.
  2. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    foilers vs....

    I don't think so; if you don't compare boats that are racing IN CONDITIONS SUITABLE TO BOTH BOATS
    one boat will always be at a disadvantage.
  3. RHough
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    RHough Retro Dude

    You mean water and some wind blowing?

    Of course one boat will always have an advantage. The better boat is the boat that wins over the W I D E S T range of conditions. Giving away performance in some conditions to excel in others has always been the design trade-off.

    If you want to compare racing boats, you compare them in conditions suitable for racing. Those conditions are some breeze to ??? knots depending on the class. Certainly a dinghy should be competitive in 1 to the low to mid 20 knot range. 8-15? is very one-dimensional.
  4. Nobody
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    Nobody Junior Member

    But Chris does raise an interesting piont. A windsurfer can do 48 odd knots over a 500m course and probally higher for short bursts. It makes the moth look pretty lame at ONLY 22.3 knots. :eek:

    In the conditions that the moth could do its 23 the windsurfer is probally not going much faster.

    In 3 knots of breeze an 18ft skiff with its big rig is going to be pretty quick...

    Obviously these three will never compete on a level feild.

  5. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    1) There's one that I sail that MAY beat a foiler Moth in conditions that "suit" both boats in terms of both having their approximate design wind; this is a cat that is a bit slower than an A Class. I have not seen the reports of foilers beating GOOD A Classers REGULARLY and therefore I remain unsure whether they do so.

    I am NOT (repeat 50,000 times NOT) saying foilers cannot beat As. I am merely saying I have not seen a detailed report of this occurring and no-one can point me to one.

    2) It seems quite possible that the foiler may beat all the singlehanders I sail in conditions that "suit" both boats in terms of them having their approximate design wind. It's an incredible tribute to Moth foiler performance that we even have to consider this, considering the size difference.

    3) Define "conditions that suit both boats". It could be said that the conditions that "suit" my boats depend on who I'm trying to beat. All my singlehanders can beat a foiler in some conditions I think.

    4) To say we should ONLY use the conditions that "suit" both boats seems very unfair to the all-rounder. What if boat X goes 110% as fast as boat Y in "ideal" conditions, but only goes 50% as fast under 6 knots and only 80% as fast over 20 knots?

    Obviously using conditions that "suit" both boats means the narrowly-focussed one will "win".....secondly, I can think of two current monohull singlehanders that have totally different wind ranges - one "suits" about 8 knots +, the other is designed for about 8 knots -. They don't "suit" the same conditions so cannot be compared at all.

    5) There still remains the problem. When you assess speed, do you use speed across the whole range, wins across the whole range, wins across the ideal range for one boat.....?

    Say two boats race seven times with the following results;

    Race 1, 15 knots - X wins by 10 minutes.
    Race 2, gusty 20-25 knots - X wins by 1 minute.
    Race 3, 15 knots - X wins by 10 minutes.
    Race 4, 6 knots - Y wins by 24 minutes.
    Race 5, 8 knots - Y wins by 1 minute.
    Race 6, 15 knots - X wins by 4 minutes.
    Race 7, 3-6 variable - Y wins, X cannot finish in time limit.

    So which is faster? Drop R7 if you want. Which is faster?

    EDIT - When Rhough said "You mean water and some wind blowing?" he's giving an example of the problem. I sail a $1500 12' singlehander that can probably beat ANY sailing class in existence in the world in freak conditions of dead calm or almost dead calm. Therefore if we got these conditions one day when we were racing and we beat the Skiffs, foilers etc, would it be fair for me to say "Class X is FASTER than 49ers, 18s, Formula boards, 18s, foiler Moths, seahuggers" just because Class X CAN do so sometimes?

    Note again - I am NOT saying foiler Moths are not amazing performers and possibly (possibly) the fastest of all singlehanded monos.
  6. Nobody
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    Nobody Junior Member

    There was a letter about a newspaper article that reported that someones sister had read in an online forum that someone had sailed a moth foiler faster than an A-Class cat. It must be true.

  7. usa2
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    usa2 Senior Member

    "There still remains the problem. When you assess speed, do you use speed across the whole range, wins across the whole range, wins across the ideal range for one boat.....?"

    I think what has been done here is comparing boats which are completely irrelevant in regards to one another. Nobody really cares about absolute boatspeed. How many people care that a foiler Moth can beat an A Class Cat in certain conditions? Nobody. How many people care that a foiler moth can beat a Laser? Not many, but you'd better hope to hell that it can because guess what? YOUR DAMN BOAT IS FLYING! Thats like saying, look at this, my F-14 Tomcat can beat your old car across the country at 50,000 feet. Oh yeah, well try taking your F-14 across the country on the interstate! If you leave the ground, YOU LOSE!

    Don't compare Moth's to other classes, nobody cares at all, except a select few. Seriously, how many people care when a Melges 24 surfs past an AC boat training on SF Bay? They are two different kinds of boats.

    And, if we are allowed to compare different classes/types of sailboats, well all of the boats mentioned are slow, because supermaxi's have them beat. BUT WAIT, THERE IS MORE!!! The 30m "supermaxi's" can be beaten by small multihulls!
    "But they are two totally different kinds of boats!" some of you will whine as you read this.
    Yeah, well so is a foiler versus a monohull in the water, and a foiler versus a multihull, so stop making stupid comparisons.

    Sorry everyone, i just had to vent:)
  8. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest


    An 11' monohull beating an 18' catamaran? Rubbish! Everybody KNOWS that couldn't happen!
  9. Neverbehind
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    Neverbehind Junior Member

    In my limited experience with a moth (1 1/2 season and then i sold the boat because of technical problems) i managed getting up on foil within my first month, 2 months later i had this process down and was sailing in 15+ knot flat water breezes. I had only been able to clock about 16 knts in all of my attempts (inexperience-bad boat?) later that season up on foil i hit a half submerged log and my foils snapped, i'm not sure if ill ever be able to touch another moth again.
  10. Neverbehind
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    Neverbehind Junior Member

    keep your lycra on folks. also note that 16 was a peaking speed-not entirely steady.
  11. RHough
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    RHough Retro Dude

    Anything COULD happen. For instance, lightening could strike and make sense of your post .

    I wouldn't bet on either. :)
  12. John ilett
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    John ilett Senior Member

    I was only saying that 8-15 knots are the most favourable conditions for a moth to compare and compete with other classes. Those classes would also have their own most favourable conditions. eg I am sure comparing I14's to 49ers would create debate also. 8-15 knots may be a small band of the overall 5-30 knot range but it is still a reasonable chunk of very normal/common light-moderate winds.

    The foiler moths performance v sea hugger amongst it own class has a much larger favourable wind range probably from 7-25 knots which pretty much covers 95% of conditions that you are likely to encounter at a regatta and obviously enough to win those regattas which makes it a succesfull racing design.
  13. Steve Clark
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    Steve Clark Charged Particle

    Just to clarify:
    The number quoted by Doug was a Bill Vining's first cut at costing the Bill of Materials.
    It is in no way a "price" but an indication to those looking to build a foil Moth what they would have to spend. The quoted number for foils is what we think the materials and parts are cost to build our own foiling system.
    My first impression, based on that number, is that Fastacraft is delivering a pretty good value.
  14. casavecchia
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    casavecchia Senior Member

    and quality is extremely good too.

  15. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Foiler Moth USA

    I moved this post here so that the building comments are more or less in the same place...This contains the pricing referred to in Steve Clark's post #88....
    For those interested in the Foiler Moth there is hope in the USA. Check out Dinghy Anarchy(under Sailing Anarchy Forums) and there are several threads regarding the homebuilding of the boat with input from Steve Clark and Phil Stevenson. Steve seems to have come up with a price around $3800-including mast and sail. In his list foils are $500 but I don't think they are hydrofoils-but I'm not positive. Both Steve and Phil Stevenson seem to have bought into the idea of sailing a seahugger Moth for some period of time before adding hydrofoils-two or three seasons has been mentioned.
    I think that buoyancy pods and going with foils right off the bat might be a good idea-but I haven't sailed a foiler Moth-but then again neither has Steve. There is some discussion of this subject on the Australian Moth forum. And as mentioned earier discussion of buoyancy pods on the UK forum-see link in one of the earlier posts. From an expense standpoint ready built foils from Fastacraft are expensive but first class and they can get you going without having to reinvent the wheel. Even the seahugger Moth needs a rudder foil- I don't know whether the aft seahuger foil and aft hydrofoil are equivalent but John Ilett would. You could sail the foiler Moth as a seahugger with buoyancy pods until you felt comfortable enough to try foiling in the right conditions. Even with Johns foils and the rest of the stuff on Steves list** you are talking about getting one of the fastest sailboats under 20' for in the vicinity of $7-8000 ready to fly* + your labor. Which is about the same price as new Hoot and half the price of a new Voodoo. Bang for the buck is unexcelled with the foiler Moth!
    Cost estimate USA International Moth, see
    post 186:
    Sailing Anarchy Forums
    Foils- My personal opinion is that no one should attempt to build the hydrofoils unless you have the capability of doing them at the highest level including using pre preg. John's foil package comes with the wand altitude sensor as well:
    * New ready to fly International Moth from Fastacraft not including shipping:$12,094 US as of today.
    **edit: 3/3/06 Bill Vining has added that he forgot trampolines and estimates $500US for them.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2006
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