FOILER 1 Grand Prix

The UK moth site has many speeds recorded http://www.int-moth.org.uk/VavavoomSP.htm

The GPS speeds are max speeds, I believe that the GPS numbers are much more accurate than any 5 knot error. Many of the moths carry the GPS and all record very similar numbers.

 

I had a GPS speed of 12.4 on my Catalina 30. All 12,000 pounds of her on a 25 foot waterline. Am I great sailor or what? Catalina's are the best, because I have a GPS that says so ....

Timed run over measured distance.

Numbers please.

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Edit: looking at the gps photos posted on that link it looks like the boats average 5.7 or so and have peak speeds in the 20's. Gee, since they can record averages, why don't we see 18-19 knot averges with 20+ peaks? My 12.4 in a Catalina 30 is looking good.

 

Having been able to see in the flesh what a Moth foiler can do, can make a world of difference.
Marco.

 

After viewing all the video at int-moth.org, I suspect why there is no measured 500 metre speed. They don't foil for 500 metres at a time?

I saw some nice moderate boat and wind speed sailing. Most tacks and gybes dropped the boats off the foils.

When the wind was up (15? 18?) I saw quite a few crash gybes (try to gybe, crash, recover on opposite gybe). I saw very few clean mark roundings in conditions that are routine for other boats.

I saw several crashes that were very close to pitch-poles, in fact if I had not been told that Moths don't pitch-pole I would have thought they were.

The Moth show should be on Saturday Night Live, they certainly are "not ready for prime time players."

 

Nobody

Check the SA thread for the "Building a Moth" thread-early in the thread for comments by Phil S. fairly recently in which he describes matching speed with a Tornado off the wind.
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Randy, you certainly are entitled to your interpretation of what you're seeing-but attacking the whole Moth class as "being not ready for prime time" is a bit of a cheap shot at one of the most exciting sailboats of all time.
Bi-foil monofoiler technology , though very new is one of the most significant sailing breakthru's in history with foiler Moths consistently winning most major class championships against "normal" Moths. And the record of comparisons against other boats will only grow. You've got to admit(you?-nah -I guess not!) that for an 11' monohull to whip a fleet of A class cats or I14's or 49er's and to match speed with a Tornado downwind is quite significant. Speeds on the GPS have comp up the same-above 23 knots - in the UK and recently in Australia-half a world away. Are they accurate? I'll be damned if I know. Are they significant-probably.

 

Doug
The only people without a hard luck story in racing are those who win!

Emmet Lazich was a top moth sailer before he moved into the 18ft skiffs and he has sailed 49ers and 12 ft skiffs.

Emmet has recorded speeds that are faster than the foiling moth in both his 49er and 12 ft skiff.

It is a pity Emmet never had a GPS when he was racing the 18ft skiff.

Interesting to hear all these claims from you about the speed potential of foils when you have not figured out how to get your thing to actually start foiling.

Moths,14's,18ft skiffs it appears we can get them all up on foils here in Australia.

 

Baron

"..haven't figured out how to get your thing to actually start foiling." You don't know what you're talking about!

 

Photos Doug!

 

Baron

When I'm satisfied that the aeroSKIFF™ is 100% I'll arrange for foiling photos. Right now the boat is being modified with the addition of a single sliding bench seat, buoyancy pods, shiftable main foil, a wand and some sail handling improvements. Though it has foiled using the manual control system-twisting the hiking stick moves the main flap- the workload is too great for singlehanded foiling hence the mods.Later this year I may try an interchangeable main only 182 sq.ft. rig...

 

Whew!

Geez a guy takes a day off from the fray and a whirlwind of hot air has spread across the water from the foiling proponents.

1. Foiling boats can be very cool as curious sidebars to the sailing world, but they are not now, nor do I suspect, will they ever become mainstream sailing vessels.

2. I'd enjoy a sailing session or two on a foiler, but I don't want to own one as a regular boat, due mostly to the complexity of stuff required to get out on the water.

3. Dougster is on a foil-borne drug and he can't say no to his Jones.

4. This isn't a Fulton's Folly type of episode from where I sit. I am open to the concept, but it has to be shown to be more practical, more affordable and simpler to operate than that which is already available in order for it to make any sense to me as a marketable product. The Industrial Design world has some very real component obligations in order to produce a successful product with lasting value. Right now, I don't see the adherance to the regimen that all designers have to meet in order to get a viable product into the marketplace. This is nothing more than a cool wet dream at this point with big claims, hot air and nothing to show, other than "the other guy's stuff" just isn't enough from where I sit. (as if this thing weren't already enough to handle, you now want to install another level of complexity to the design with a sliding seat? Why not an ***** bag charged with nitrogen, or a toothbrushing function, or a DVD viewer that is waterproof?)

5. Foilers can go fast in the right conditions, but so can a Chevy BelAir with a military surplus turbine on the roof. Your point is...?

6. I truly wish you a lot of luck, Doug, but unless you can toss some of your own green on the table and bring this world beater bad boy to market, I just don't see it happening on any scale more than the fringe that it currently occupies. Make it so and I'll apologize; but then, that isn't really good enough for you.

&. My comments have been negative for the most part because you have the hyperbaric chamber of optimism covered in spades. No product ever survives in the market without being wrung-out by those who have alternative insight. If you are this afraid of havoing your design called-out, I can only guess how you'll respond at the first boat show you attend where the public will unflinchingly ask the same questions, only they won't be so nice. Ask me how I know that, already?

You never addressed any of the concrete issues from my previous letter, so I have to assume you don't have your collective act together on anything but a pipe dreamer's level.

How about the marketability issue?

How about the fiddly parts issue?

How about the ability of the average guy to sail one and not a super stud with hundreds of hours of experience? (you may remember that cars used to have these fiddly little levers on the steering column for fuel richness and spark advance/retard) There's a reason why they're not there anymore)

What happens when you hit something in the water? (you know, like kelp, jellyfish, floaters, plastic bags, fishing line, dead boat designers, etc.)

How about the production costs of having to produce expensive foils at two ends of the boat that can be easily damaged by an innatentive recreational sailor? (not expensive you say? Take a look at the prices on the Fastacraft site and swallow hard. And that's from one of the proponents of the genre in who's interest the cost of an affordable foil set would be very obvious)

How about the suitability for the rental trade where thousands of recreational sailors get a start each year?

Bubba Doug? It's tough to grow-up and face that which has to be faced every day by adults; Namely the ability to back-up your claims and produce the wonder boat that foils in 5, is easy enough to sail that a rank comrade could step aboard and get that baby to fly in a lesson or two and can go out the door at a price that allows it to compete with a plastic Hobie Wave.

That's why I challenged you to refinance your house, stick your cheese in the wind and prove us all wrong. You comfortably ignored the challenge because you don't have the sack. What you do have is the hot wind necessary to sell used cars and that's about it.

Get off the vapors and the old age desperation and get a real take on what is working out there. The marketplace has it's own truth, my boy, and right now, you're not even close to meeting the entry fee. Well, that or consign yourself to the pages of Gizmo, Popular Mechanics and eBay as a curiosity of the time.

Is that plain enough for ya?

 

Repeating these claims over and over does not make them so. These are not a "long list".

As usual, when asked for any facts to support your claims all we get is attacks. Same thing in the power assist debate, same thing in the CBTF debate. No hard facts from you ... ever.

I posted about what I saw in several videos on the Moth site. May I assume they were not made to make the boat look foolish?

At Laser worlds, half the fleet does not crash at the gybe mark. Certainly not many in the top 25% of the fleet ... compare that to what is shown in the Moth video.

 

So they're tricky to turn, big deal. They make up for it everywhere else. Theyre a development class etc and will always be a challenge.

I guess you could crash a laser too if you fall asleep, could happen!

 

I think that the foiler Moths are great little boats. I think they are exciting to watch and would probably be a hoot to sail.

Nothing I've seen makes me suspect that they are easy to sail. At 50+ and over 200# I can still get a Laser around a race course, I doubt that I could foil a Moth at all.

As wonderful as the Moths are, IMO they are not mass-market boats. Doug has some special medication that has convinced him that small foilers will sell like beer at a ball game.

Nothing he has said, and no facts that I can find support that position.

The facts of the moment are that foiler Moths are faster than non-foiler Moths under some conditions.

That is a very far cry from foiler Moths being faster than A-Cats, 49er's, and Tornado's.

The comparisons are ridiculous.

There would be more truth in me claiming that my Catalina 30 is faster than 49er. At least I can create a race that would prove my claim.

 

Doug is this the thread you mean?

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=29873&st=0

I have read it through twice and can't find any reverence to a Moth beating a tornado downwind. Perhaps you could post a link to the post directly.

Yes doug it would be good for an 11' monohull to whip a fleet of 49ers or keep pace with a tornado downwind but you have yet to provide ANY evidence that this is the case. I am still waiting and you a still avoiding the issue.

Here is a paper that assessed the accuracy of the speed output of a gps unit. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=15519597&dopt=Abstract

It was published in 2004 and so is reasonably new. Their results showed that the error was less than 0.8 of a knot 64% of the time. This random type of error is significant in that there are a small number of points that are much higher is error than that. This is why you get a single fast point however if you look at the track you get a lower speed.

I will say it again. I have seen but not sailed a foiling moth. They are awesome when they fly by you out of the water. I havn't sailed aginst them but hope to in the future to see how fast they are. All I want you to do Doug, is be accurate in the claims you make. In the long run exagerating will only frustrate people when their expectations are not met.

Nobody

 

absolute speed is not everything and that is why marketing a so called "monofoiler" or whatever you want to call it wont work in the U.S. Nobody except the few people who want the sensation of flying a small dinghy will be attracted to it. Most people sail because they want to take their friends out and have a good time on the water, or they do competitive racing in an established class, usually one design in the U.S.
In Australia you may get a few people interested, but seriously, if you were there, would you rather have a Moth versus a 12, 14 or 18 foot skiff? Or you could be part of the crew on the numerous ocean/coastal racers.