FOILER 1 Grand Prix

Posturing?

Chris,you, apparently, didn't read my last post very well-no matter and no case at all! I've made a good case for buoyancy pods as have the Moth guys on the UK forum-removable, of course. There is no way a beginner(begining Moth sailor-see below) is going to get good at foiling by spending several seasons sailing in seahugger mode. Anything that can be done to allow foiling sooner will be an advantage. I've never said sailing a Moth is easy or that there won't be the ocasional crash and burn-so what? For every crash there are many , many hours of successful -and fun- foiling! Read Rohan Veals comments at the bottom of my last post.And my comments about conditions -and instruction.
You seem to be trying to say that because the boat might crash and burn that foiling should be discouraged or at least not encouraged. That even though I have repeatedly pointed out the whole hydrofoil scene is in it's infancy that there are endemic physical reasons why teaching new people to foil is a lost cause-HOGWASH!
Crashes may be a part of the technology or the technique-makes no difference-since both are improving at breakneck speed.To the degree that there will be crashes-again-so what? Rohans comments answer that question...
There is no question that using buoyancy pods will get begining Moth sailors on foils sooner but that doesn't mean it will be easy-it won't be but it will be loads of fun experiencing flying and the relatively high speeds in the light conditions first time foilers should start in. By the way I'm saying first time Moth sailors-not people that have never sailed before. The Moth foiler,
even with pods, is not a trainer! Nor will a Peoples Foiler be a trainer- but with the technology that can be incorporated it could be a good next step.
The fact is that Moth monofoiling has captured the imagination of many-and the number of people wanting to give it a go grows every day.
======================
edit: PS- regarding Chris's words about the "SA crowd" and budgets: SA made history with the so far successful marketing of the 30' FT10-70 orders over the website-not too shabby if it continues to work out. I say well done guys! Don't discount Sailing Anarchy or Dinghy Anarchy......

 

Chris, your physics arguments could be applied to bicycling. And, pavement is a little harder than water. But we still take the training wheels off and shove our kids down the hill.

Why foil a moth? The moth looks to be one of the most difficult boats to sail even in sea hugger mode.

If someone could develop a foiler kit for the garden variety laser, they would sell 10,000 of them in the first season. No pods required.

 

The foiling moths rarely pitchpole, what is there to trip over? There is no hull making excessive drag as would happen when other boats pitchpole.

Worst case is when the main foils comes out of the water that it can (not always) ventilate. The ventilation makes the boats come back down to the water quick enough for a spectacular nose dive but 8 out 10 ten are sailed away from.

The picture posted by Chris is not a pitch pole sequence. A capsized boat can have the sail filled with the boom up in air against the side stay. Then as the boats are so light, given enough wind the rig will roll the whole boat over it's bow. The sailor can be seen holding on to wing guiding the roll over and not flying through the air.

Have you sailed any foilers Chris?

 

Hi John,
what about first time out foiling?
It can be done, Manuel did it, others too did it, without pods, right?
Cheers,
Marco.

 

That's right. Manuel from Italy came to Perth in Feb 2005 and sailed my own boat for the first time, getting up and foiling ok on the same day.

Starting out on a low rider is a good idea to learn some boat handling and anticipation particular to the moth but all you need to do is pull on the sensor wand shockcord tighter to prevent the boat from foiling or add a bit more lift to the rudder with a twist of the tiller extension. Then when you feel ready let it foil.

Windsurfing is difficult to learn too but it doese'nt seem to stop people from enjoying final reward.

Learning to capsize and right them again is all part of it, they're very quick to get going again but you could lose alot of ground when the competition is cruising at 20 knots. Makes for exciting racing.

 

Moth / foiling / new development

Super Piper- actually quite a debt of gratitude is owed by those interested in monohull foiling to the Moth innovators. If it hadn't been for the historic development traditions within that class it's unlikely the extraordinary foilers we see now and that are clearly possible in the future would have half a chance to progress beyond the fringe. Using just two foils to sail a monohull was pioneered by Ian Ward and developed into a race winning World Championship level system by John Ilett using a wand altitude control system for the first time on a monohull.
One of the most important characteristics for any foiler is the ability to get up early in the lightest possible wind- that favors a fairly high beam to length ratio(10/1 or so so) that allows the boat to transition to foiling speed early. Another reason for the Moth pintail designs is to facillitate early takeoff by allowing the crew to slide aft pitching up the bow and changing the angle of attack of the whole foil system allowing for even earlier takeoff.
Here is the begining of new develoment-a boat by Simon Maguire called the M4-note the buoyancy pods. This boat is nowhere near as developed as the Ilett foiling system but the guy is trying to come up with a Peoples Foiler. I've talked to him and he is committed to producing a boat that makes foiling easy for greater numbers of people.The M4 concept:
http://www.sailm4.co.uk/index.php
The M4 is future development as are the boats I'm working on but if you want to foil a monohull now there is only one choice: the Moth.
Given any measure of "bang for the buck" and the fact that the Moth can be home built or purchased ready to fly the boat is an extraordinary value with extraordinary technology.
Making monofoiling accessible to more people and easier to learn is a priority for a lot of people around the world- I wouldn't be surprised to see the Fastascraft Team and John Ilett come up with a major breakthru in that area as well!
As I've said before: foiling a monohull on just two hydrofoils is a revolution in sailing that ranks with the most significant changes in small boat sailing in the last hundred years-and it is only just begining.

 

Arguments

To all the foiler afficiandoes out there, these are the bottom line arguments working against your interests in having a boat that will be a hit for the entry-level, sailing public.

1.Complexity of product (perceived and otherwise)

2. Expense as an out-the-door product in which more parts on the boat equals more money to buy

3. Fiddly stuff that takes huge amounts of time to learn

4.Gimmicky technology that is way outside the envelope of what is known as a normal boat by the buying public

Everywhere, the sales of recreational products that have an expanded level of complexity are not doing as well as those that do not. The recreational sailing market is not as big as you guys think it might be. The available buying public already has hundreds of other, easier to use, distractions for outdoor pursuits. (including bikes with training wheels)

Hobie is a successful company, now, with cash rolling in the door mostly due to their sales of rotomolded, entry level, kayaks and catamarans. They still make and sell boats that are complex and fiddly, but even there, they have cut back on the models offered in their line in favor of cheaper, less complex models.

When one has an on-going business model like Hobie that is showing the way for economic success, it absolutely amazes me that someone can stand in the sun and say with a straight face, we can buck the trend in a big way and make, "MILLIONS, I TELL YOU"

10,000 units sold of a foiler? In one season? Whew! That is some good weed you've got there, SuperPipe. How about you step-up then, and toss some hard earned green into Doug's coffer and prove it? No, don't ignore the challenge. Put your money where your speculative mouth is and prove it.

For that matter... Doug. Go get yourself a refinance on your home for the necessary capital and stick your cheese in the wind, personally, and prove to all of us that we need to apologize. I'll be happy to apologize, if and when, you can pull it off with a going concern that is pumping-out foilers at a 10,000 a year clip.

Direct marketing of a 30' Sport Boat within the SA crowd of spewers, compared to the issues surrounding a small, one person techno-boat are not even close to the same. I already acknowledged that you'll get orders from the spew crowd because they are the ones who rush to the flame. Without the general public stepping-up, though, you will have a nice, little curiosity that essentially goes nowhere along with an expensive set of tools sitting in the corner of your garage doing nothing. I suggest you begin your marketing campaign with SuperPiper and the relatively few dudes who feel they have to have one of these boats. Get them to buy enough vapor while you sort out the technology in its infancy, and get yourself running down the track.

One of the really good indicators in the new, personal, Everyman's boat market is how readily they can be sold into the hotel/beach rental trade as boats avaliable for the general public when they are on vacation. Why don't you spend a few hours showing your example around to hotel owners and see how many of them you can move out the door? In fact, when you do garner a sale to a hotel beach rental outfit, please tell us who it is so we can partake of the magic when we go on vacation.

I can see it now: A young and inexperienced hotel manager in Cozumel takes a winger on a foiler and Joe Vacationer spends his entire afternoon trying like hell to get his butt up on foils in the hot sun of the Gulf of Mexico. His wife and kids are on the beach waiting for his stubborn persona and finally he does get the boat to foil. He rides that bad boy into the beach with a big grin on his face and WHAM!, he plants the foils in the sand at speed, does, in fact, pitchpole the fiddly boat and spends the rest of his two week stay in paradise in a traction cast while his wife and kids wipe his butt for him. I can hear the sound of lawyers speed dialing your number all across America as we speak. Yep, that's what the boating public needs as an entry-level boat.

Pitchpoling will happen when you start getting less than experienced sailors out on the water in these boats. Their level of understanding, as well as ability to read conditions will change the numbers dramatically. They will have expectations for being able to take their boats anywhere that they see the others guys going and they'll make liars out of all of you in the fantastic ways they can dump their boats while simply out for a sail. You said you wanted to sell to the general public and not savvy, race prepped, sailors... you get the stuff that goes with that approach and that will blow your mind when the reports start to come in the door.

While you're at it, give a call to Greg Ketterman at Hobie and ask him if he'd be willing to buy or license your design concept and put it into production. Or perhaps Hunter, or any of the other big time boating outfits to see if this type of boat fits a nominal business plan. I can't see why your concept wouldn't be absolutely stunning in the board rooms of on-going boating manufacturers. I should think they'd be falling all over themselves trying to get the deal done with you on this, the way you talk about it.

Let me guess, you've already met resistance because it's a really hard sell for a number of reasons like: not using parts already in inventory, requires a separate marketing campaign with specific road crew to haul it around to boat dealers, boat dealers are already resistant to anything foily after taking a bath on Windriders and Trifoilers, etc, etc.

Right now, you're all full of your genius vision and in the company of other committed enthusiasts, you managed to convince yourself that this is actually going to work. Now, having a genius vision isn't, in itself, a bad thing. In fact, I applaud your willlingness to hang it out there to this point. Hanging-it-out with afficiandoes is not the way to get good feedback, though. You need to listen to what is being said by folks who are not so enamored by the techno-bits and get a grip before you hurt yourself and a few others in the process.

This foiling Moth thing has been going on in Australia for some time now, so I'd like to know just how many of these boats are actually out there among the Moth enthusiasts, themselves. Has the foiling Moth taken OZ by storm and now virtually no other boats of any kind are being sold except Moths? Produce some successful numbers that prove the point. And that's in a country that is much more attuned to sailing recreation than here in the US.

The facts are just as you said it, and more... the potential is in its infancy, it doesn't pass the criteria list at the top of the page with anything like a success quotient and unless you will put your own money on the line to prove your ideas, it's going to go nowhere save for a few excitable boys who would buy anyhting that looks like they can salvage their fading manhood.

It's a good gimmick; using technology to overcome that which you could never do on your best day as a younger man. We see it everyday here, in Salt Lake City; dude is now able to afford that whizbang carbon snowboard, bindings and boots and he can, at last, carve the turns and toss 720's with the local hotshoes in the halfpipe. Dude goes home in someone else's car because he can't drive his own away from the slope due to personal damage.

Like I said, in case you weren't listening/reading... put up your own dough/personal equity in the enterprise and get on with it. Front the tooling, marketing, production space, support technology, inventory, staff.. you know, all the stuff that makes for more than a whisp of foolishness on the Internet. When you and SuperPipe get to the 10,000 units mark, give me a ring and I'll take you to lunch and apologize. Until then....

Chris

 

Hey Doug:

Chris put together a lot of words to convince us foiling may not happen.

Do you think that deep down he is afraid that it might?

 

Wow! Class A BS!

I've got to tell you that is one of the most pathetic,pessimistic, unfounded, diatribes I have EVER read on any subject! Based on four points that are totally ridiculous with little or no foundation in the real world with NO appreciation for the effort being expended by many people to develop a facet of sailing that was just born in 1999. Such unrepentent horsemanure!
That's the kind of attitude that justifies itself on a hardened hypothesis based on a conmplete lack of understanding of what is actually happening; speaking authoritatively of technical issues, boats and equipment of which the author simply has no accurate knowledge . An hypothesis of doom built on vacuous assertions dredged from the depths of a dead or dying imagination and delivered in a ponderous (and onerous) lecture of startling composition. Takes my breath away!
Now I know what "resistance" to new technology REALLY means- this is a manifesto of hopelessness....
I just hope your pathetic, hopeless, pessimistic comments are as wrong as they are ugly!!!!

 

that was quite a speech

 

Did you notice that it did not address any of the real questions? Did you notice that it contained no facts?

Commercial foilers have been available for years.

There must be a reason that we don't see 1,000's of Tri-foilers on the water every weekend.

Here is another way to look at foilers:

What conditions are required to foil?

What percentage of the time do those conditions exist?

What conditions prevent foiling?

What percentage of the time do those conditions exist?

Can conventional dinghies be sailed in conditions where foiling is not possible?

Will a sailor be able to enjoy more or less time sailing in a foiler or a conventional boat?

I don't expect any answers and I'm almost certain not to be disappointed.

 

foilers

This thread is about monofoilers not multifoilers. Multifoilers, while having high top end speeds are poor performers in winds under about 15 knots . Monofoilers on the other hand can foil in wind conditions from around 8 knots on up this week. Next week they'll be able to foil in 5 knot winds. And do it upwind while pointing as high or higher than other boats. That's the major difference between the multifoilers and monofoilers:the Moth can foil in conditions that most people sail in every day-the multi's require too much wind.People that have built "Peoples Foiler" prototypes are all trying for the same thing: earliest takeoff possible not the highest top end speed(necessarily). Other major differences from a technical perspective include the fact that the multifoilers develop their own righting moment and have 50% more "surface penetrations" (3 foils vs 2 foils)than a monofoiler which uses crew weight and sailing technique to create righting moment.
The Moth can sail in the conditions any other dinghy can sail in and foil in most conditions beating almost any dinghy or skiff or cat under 20' in conditions that suit them both.Because of this ability to take off in light air time on the water is more and more time on foils in the Moth class-and that will be true of a Peoples Foiler as well.And that will make all the difference in the world in marketing these boats to sailors.
But the bi-foil monofoiler technology is just starting out-there are possibilities for their use on almost every size boat-the OUT 95(31') is going to sail on a bi-foil system next year and Bethwaite, Langman and others are looking at the monofoiler concept in anything from full flying 60' keelboat foilers to"semi-foilers " designed just to foil off the wind and retract their foils flush with the hull in non foiling conditions and upwind. Several designers are looking at "foil assist" systems requiring no altitude control for a wide range of different boats.
This is an exciting time led by the incredible development in the Moth class and by pioneers such as John Ilett and sailors like Rohan Veal and others-and it will change sailing for the better forever.

 

and how many people want to foil?
Seriously, this doesnt seem to be an easily marketable idea. Especially if it is for people with previous sailing experience. Would your average Laser,420, or Vanguard 15 sailor want to continue sailing in their respective, already very competitiver classes, or would they want to ditch that completely and try to learn to foil? A
It may make people initially attracted to the sport, but then they realize that they need to know how to sail well in normal boats to be able to sail a foiler. So maybe they will join another class, and enjoy it there so much that they forget the foiler idea.
Or they will just say "whatever" and spend their money on a big screen TV instead.

 

whatever

Time will tell..

 

They will never foil reliably in true wind below about 6 knots, at least not on this planet. But you've read and understood Bethwaite so you knew that.

LMAO, physics is physics. You condemn what you call "multi-foilers" for being too fast while admitting that what you call "mono-foilers" are designed for early lift-off rather than top speed.

Mono = one .... mono-foilers have two foils. Can we assume that mono-foilers cannot count? There are true mono-foil water-ski's, but this thread is about sailing foilers.

What you are comparing are single track foilers to multi-track foilers.

The speed that the craft can lift off is a simple relationship between sail area, foil area, and wind speed. A multi-track foiler could be designed to lift off at any speed a single track foiler can lift off. The multi-track boat would not have to rely on superb skill and reflexes to sail. At higher speeds, after the single track foiler has run out of righting moment, the multi-track foiler will sail faster as the weather foil comes out of the water.

pssst ... it is the same physics that make multi-hulls faster than mono-hulls in any size above demitasse.

Have you ever sailed in SF Bay? I would really like to see a foiler moth in 30+ and 4 foot chop. Hell 20 and 2 foot chop. I've sailer a Laser in those conditions, bring on the foiler ... LOL

Now sail in 2-6 knot conditions ... way too funny.

Is that kind of like a two wheeled uni-cycle?