Foil Assist Monohulls

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Jun 14, 2018.

  1. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    These boats were just published in todays Scuttlebutt Europe:

    1- Club Swan 36-retractable foil each side deployed with block and tackle. Foil generates lateral resistance mostly.
    Club Swan 36 foil assist.jpg
    -------
    2- MCP 24 from Brazil. Proprietary "Sailing Booster" system(DSS!!) featuring two electronic controlled foils allowing reduction in keel weight. MCP24.jpg
     
  2. Dolfiman
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    Dolfiman Senior Member

    In this video in English, from 6:50, Juan K the architect presents the Club Swan 36 , including the C-board role (at 15:50) :
     
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  3. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Wow-a single curved foil! I had an idea for a continuous curved foil for a dinghy a few years ago-never did anything with it. Juan K has what looks like a real good set-up.....


    Single curved foil + Dinghy 001.JPG Single curved foil + Dinghy 002.JPG Single curved foil + Dinghy 003.JPG
     
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  4. OzFred
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    OzFred Senior Member

    It's not DSS (different patent). It was announced in December 2016 with the following YouTube video (which has been posted elsewhere):

     
  5. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    It's an attempted DSS ripoff ,in my opinion. I sincerely hope they don't get away with it!
    I sent that original video to Hugh when it first came out so he's already dealing with it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2018
  6. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    There's an interesting recent comment on SA. The guy who now owns the DSS prototype took the foil off it because it didn't work all-round.
     
  7. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ======================
    Thats an amazing comment! Which DSS prototype? The one that was converted to test the system? The one built from foam as a test boat 8 years or so ago?
    I'd like to hear what Hugh Welbourn says about a spurious claim like that-there's a lot more to that story given the numerous boats that have used DSS successfully and do work all-round!
     
  8. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    "Spurious claim"? What on earth? How in the world do you know it's a "spurious claim"? You've never seen the boat, you've never sailed the boat, you have probably never seen any unbiased reports.

    This forum is supposed to be about discussion and learning, which means objective analysis of information such as the account by the owner of a DSS boat, and not your one-eyed abuse of anything that does not match your bias. Oh, and Hugh saw the post and didn't foully insult the boat's owner by claiming he was lying, as you do.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    It's a spurious claim because of the implication that DSS does not work. DSS is an overwhelmingly proven technology and for somebody with a "prototype" to claim it doesn't work "all-round" is suspect to say the least. It may be a particular problem with the so-called "prototype" since DSS was tried on conversions where the conclusion was reached that to work at its best DSS needs to be used on a boat designed from scratch for it.
    Hugh Welbourns comments on this particular boat would be important and reflect the facts(see below).
    -------------------
    Repeating a claim made by someone on another forum with no other supporting facts (when they were available to you*) puts the totally unsupported claim in the category of "spurious".
    * Such as Hugh Welbourns comments that you could have quoted to provide a more balanced post-you mentioned above that he had responded.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
  10. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    Doug, your post is illogical and insulting. No one posted anything "spurious" which is defined as "false or fake". I wrote what the owner on SA wrote. There are NO supporting facts available to me I left out - in fact I specifically referred to the fact that it was the prototype.

    Your ducking and weaving cannot obscure the fact that you claimed that the owner of the prototype was making a "false or fake" claim, when you had no evidence for that. That's dishonest.

    To reject evidence that DSS in one boat did not work as well as claimed undermines your claim that the technology is "overwhelmingly proven". The only honest way to assess whether a technology is "overwhelmingly proven" is by an unbiased and objective assessment of it, and when you launch into attacks like and discard evidence when it doesn't suit you it just makes it even more apparent that you lack the ability to make unbiased and objective assessments.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
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  11. OzFred
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    OzFred Senior Member

    You are entitled to your opinion, but to me it’s no more a “DSS ripoff” than DSS is a rip-off of similar systems that can before it (i.e. it isn’t). DSS (that is, the patented Dynamic Stability System) is not just a horizontal stabilising foil, it’s an entire system encompassing the boat and rig design as well as the foil.

    Since a Sailing Booster System patent has been applied for and the DSS designer is aware of it, perhaps you can let others who know what they are talking about sort out whether it infringes on the DSS patent or not.
     
  12. OzFred
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    OzFred Senior Member

    Doug drew the conclusion that because the owner removed the foil, that was tantamount to a public declaration that “DSS does not work”. So the owner has been verballed quite badly.

    Wild Oats XI attempted two versions of DSS-like foils and abandoned both in favour of other modifications. To me that doesn’t say “DSS doesn’t work”, only that there are better was to enhance the boat’s performance (for some unspecified criteria for “better”). I think the logic was that the weight of the system could be put to better use elsewhere in the boat. That may or may not be true in other cases with different priorities and criteria.
     
  13. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    =======================
    It's an attempted ripoff-right now its still vaporware but most of the claims they make are the same ones covered by the DSS patent.
     
  14. OzFred
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    OzFred Senior Member

    Given that in the section "Object of the invention", the DSS patent states (my emphasis):

    It is an object of the invention to provide a monohull sailing vessel having a lifting hydrofoil that ameliorates some of the disadvantages and limitations of the known art or at least provides the public with a useful choice.​

    you must consider DSS a ripoff of the mentioned (prior) art.

    If you think that statement is provocative (I certainly think so, and wrong), then you might understand how provocative your statement is.
     

  15. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    This is the Abstract of Welbourns patent . Listen to the Sailing Booster video as they try to claim the same benefits for their ripoff foil.

    A monohull sailing vessel (102, 202, 402, and/or 502) having a lifting hydrofoil (104 and/or 204) having a stowed position and a deployed position in which the hydrofoil extends outward of a leeward side of the hull (138). The hydrofoil may have an aspect ratio greater than 2.5:1, may be oriented at an angle of attack between 2 and 6 degrees, and may be oriented at a mean angle (124) of between 5 and 20 degrees to horizontal. The hydrofoil may have a projected area adapted to provide a righting moment and a lifting force for partially but not fully lifting the vessel out of the water. The hydrofoil may have an exposed span (112) that is greater than about 7% of a height of the tallest mast (134). The vessel may include an actuation assembly (128, 228, 308, and/or 316) for moving the hydrofoil between the stowed and deployed positions.
     
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