FLYWHEEL Energy Storage Systems

Discussion in 'Propulsion' started by brian eiland, Apr 21, 2010.

  1. RonL
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    RonL Junior Member

    Water, water, everywhere and not a drop to drink. If I remember that had to do with sunshine and no wind.:)

    The wind is there sometimes, solar is good for about 25% of a 24 hr day (average ?). There are things a flywheel can do that take it beyond a simple storage device, no need for 60,000 rpm vacuum sealed units, big heavy slow speed units can do things that might help cover small continous needs.

    Heat abounds in air and water all around a boat, compressed and expanded air can give a method of access to this heat, it is there 24 hours a day, with a little mechanical inginuity it can be changed to work.

    I think there are things to work with, but most want too much instant and large quantity power.

    Ron
     
  2. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    Boats are just too energy hungry for present storage devices to be up to the task. Hybrid cars are a sign that things are changing, but remember that cruise power demands are much higher for boats than cars. The fact that powerboats don't need brakes tells the story.
     
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  3. CDK
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    CDK retired engineer

    That is a dead end street Ron.
    Our whole society is rooted in the other direction: faster and bigger.
    Researchers also want to get paid at the end of each month, so they are guided by commercial goals.

    Whenever a new car is introduced, there is an option offered, capable of exceeding the speed limits with a few more miles or accelerating a fraction of a second faster. Only with their backs to the wall because they cannot afford anything better, the public settles for less.
     
  4. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    ""Only with their backs to the wall because they cannot afford anything better, the public settles for less.""

    A much better concept would be to cancel the politicians and their agendas that keep energy so expensive.
     
  5. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    I say hang em with the ropes they imported from China
    then maybe our energy problems will begin to go away

    cheers
    B
     
  6. RonL
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    RonL Junior Member

    On the chance my Idea is correct and anyone that can whittle a stick could build one, I guess it would be kinda like a statement I once heard "waterwheels in Europe went away after a tax was imposed on the volume of water that flowed over them".

    That sounds too accurate to not be true.:mad:

    Guess I pretty well agree with the thoughts in the four post above.

    Ron
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2010
  7. CDK
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    CDK retired engineer

    Brilliant idea Fred, your thought processes keep amazing me.

    But I'm afraid it is not going to happen.
    Governments will keep increasing taxes on everything that is bad for your health or the environment until you stop smoking and drinking, change your name into Slow Fred and buy a bicycle.

    And let's be honest, lowering the tax on fuel would make you careless with all those cheap gallons; they still do need the money so would increase something else like income tax.
     
  8. RonL
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    RonL Junior Member

    A comment made by jehardiman, addressed gyroscopic effects of a flywheel, I would like to express a point of view based on personal playing.

    Holding a very low power (?) motor in hand and using a ceiling fan controller for slow start and good control, I turned a 22" X 14 pitch airplane prop and afterwards a small 3 V cast iron pulley, the torque twist on my hand and arm was alarming to say the least. Any movement of a very large high energy density flywheel on a boat being moved by wave action, would in my mind place far to much stress and strain on a hull, unless it was built like a tank and weighed close to the same.

    Large amounts of energy storage in motion or high pressure, large volume storage tanks of any kind, will not likely ever be approved.

    Modern day thinking, to me seems to be denouncing slow speed flywheels and lead/acid batteries when they offer wonderful opportunities for ballast and storage at extremely low cost in comparison to some of the new technology coming out of the labs.

    I wonder just how many people really know what thinking out of the box means.
    Let me give away one of my ideas and see if someone knows if it has been done before (don't let the mechanics fry your brains:)), A lead/acid battery properly designed, supported and enclosed in a cylinder acting as a flywheel. Sure there are design issues, but all problems have solutions. The motion can enhance thermal control by circulating liquid through, which in turn allows higher charge and discharge rates.

    Crazy talk ? maybe, but it looks to me like new things are getting harder to come up with.

    Ron
     
  9. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member

    Clarification

    Least my suggestion for the use of a flywheel energy unit onboard a vessel be misinterpeted, let me explain my idea again.

    I was NOT suggesting that the energy storage device would be utilized in any manner to propel the vessel. My thought was that such a unit might be substituted for the traditional diesel-generator set, particularly where the power requirements for such a generator set were not too great. A relatively small flywheel energy set might well have been powered up during the normal operation of the propulsion engine(s) just as a big heavy battery bank might have been charged up.

    Then when you need bit of electrical power at anchor you might engage this flywheel energy device for QUIET power verses cranking up another diesel engine/generator set.

    The flywheel energy device might well consist of 'a pairing' of smaller flywheels such that they offset one another's gyroscopic effects.

    http://www.damninteresting.com/the-mechanical-battery
     

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  10. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    It would have to be set up in a gimbal so it didn't waste its energy redirecting its axis of rotation with the motion of the boat and even then it might still loose a substantial amount due to vertical acceleration or for that mater any acceleration. Gyroscopes generally don't like to be moved ie resist motion. Using it as a gigantic rotor and occasionally subjecting it to a stator might work to produce power but the logistics would be really tricky.

    cheers and best of luck with it
    B
     
  11. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    I'd say get in touch with the crew of a UFO and see if you can pick their brains on the subject, about as likely as some of the ideas being bandied about here !!! I'd think that more efficient boat designs are more prospective than magical undiscovered power sources. Who was the guy that said the most economical way to travel on water was over it, not through it ? Sounds like a good starting point to me.
     
  12. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    Creativity begins with thinking outside of the box.
    A box some people
    never step foot outside.
     
  13. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    I agree, but stuff like flywheel storage or pressurised air containment looks like dead-ends, unless there are some startling developments in materials science. Otherwise I would prefer to be at least half a mile clear of such installations. Even hydrogen, the perfect "green" fuel is problematical because the sheer lightness of it means big volumes are required, those Saturn rockets were pretty big ! :D
     
  14. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    Ya but by pursuing odd ball ideas some folks have come up with some pretty interesting stuff. I'm running WMO ( waste motor oil ) in my diesel and its running smoother quieter and stronger than ever. Turns out the stuff has about 20% higher BTU's/gallon than diesel and about 30% more than WVO ( vegetable oil ). Funny thing was no one in the bio-diesel field was going to mention it cause its not "green" fuel. Well its fuel its free its recycling and its like adding a turbo charger to my engine. So I'm setting up a 160 gallon filter station in my back yard even as we speak ( three 55 gallon drums with multiple filters cleaning it down to ~0.5 microns ). Should be up and running by the end of Jan and a few days after that I'll have a 3 month supply of fuel set aside and ready to go.

    What fuel and how to produce/generate it is a prime concern of mine as I go through the process of deciding on a retirement build. Now that I think I know what I'm going to be burning I'll practice on my truck rather than experiment with the boat. Everyone told me to just go diesel and by pursuing options I stumbled into WMO. Free fuel at least for now. Later if it becomes hard to come by I can maybe switch to Bio-diesel Kerosene mix but for now I'm content to save $75 each time I fill the tank using free waste oil.

    Its a process and by going through it Brian just might come up with something no one else has tried yet. The best inventions and developments come from relative unknowns and people who are not constrained by professional boundaries.

    the next big breakthrough in transportation is not going to come from those who benefit most from the present paradigm. They have no incentive to change other than the pressure put on them by start ups successfully going green or alternative in some way.

    remember the EV-1
    they only took it off the market because it lacked in residual profits
    basically it worked
    didn't need much if any maintenance
    no tune ups
    the batteries even exceeded there expected life spans
    car worked like a charm
    but the industry recalled them anyway
    and with a vengeance

    things need to change and those who benefit most from the existing paradigm are unlikely to be the ones who change it; which leaves everyday people like us to come up with better ideas. That IMHO is what makes it important to encourage new ideas even if they seem a little goofy at first.

    There is a guy on here trying to come up with a pulse diesel turbine generator, no idea if he can pull it off but the idea of a more efficient fuel burn kinda sounds good. Might as well not discourage these folks if you ask me


    my two cents
    and best wishes to all in the coming year
    B
     

  15. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    Necessity being the mother of invention and " peak oil " a present reality, sure to be much "procreation" being attempted ! Even if the ratio of ratbag ideas to genuine breakthroughs is ten thousand to one, you never know what might be cooked up.
     
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