Flying Canting Keel-Extraordinary Innovation!

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Jan 3, 2010.

  1. P Flados
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    P Flados Senior Member

    For a very special need such as capsize recovery for those with physical limitations, there is an open field to try things that are probably not worth the effort without the "special need". Normally, a "good result" is just making something useful only for the special need. However, it is possible for a special need development to produce results that becomes "worth the effort" for a stadard product. Once proven, the entire state of the art is moved forward.

    I like innovation and I try to encourage it. I also try to push picking challenges that are "do-able" (focused and achievable in scope) and then following through.
     
  2. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Trapwing Danger Zone

    Of course then there is the foiler version:

    Rendering of Danger Zone by Sailing Kid-

    click on image:
     

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  3. SteveMellet
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    SteveMellet Senior Member

    Having read through all this, I`m inclined to believe a shunting proa makes more sense than anything else we know.:D
     
  4. Timothy
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    Timothy Senior Member

    For what its worth I share your opinion. It seems to me that any of the go fast developments currently being experimented with could be attempted on a shunting proa providing some means of shifting the fore and aft COG could be employed.
     
  5. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    -----------------------
    But what if it capsizes with a disabled person on it? The trapwing is designed specifically to provide a safe, self-righting and very fast platform for disabled sailing-and for anyone else as well.
     
  6. SteveMellet
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    SteveMellet Senior Member

    Sorry Doug, I was thinking of the original topic, ie the canting flying keel.. The thread has drifted to encompass other subjects & ideas. My thought was just that, in order to acchieve the desired result, ie a flying canting keel, the designers went all out to provide an incredibly complicated solution to an extremely simple problem. If you need ballast to weather, it would be much simpler to just build a shunting proa the likes of a Harryproa, which I think might rival the overly complicated design employed in the boat Q, as well as others, which you brought our attention to, and it might give similar performance, even though the Harryproa is a more cruising oriented design to that of Q.
    I think if you wanted to test the sliding ballast idea then it would make sense to do so at a smaller scale such as 14ft / 18ft, but my thoughts were that it would just be to test the viability of a system or concept, that could then be built to a larger size if it were to compete with the boats which employ canting keels, none of which are much smaller than 40ft anyway.
    If you are thinking along the lines of designing a dinghy sized boat that can employ this movable ballast idea, which does 30knots on hydrofoils and appeals to a physically challenged target market, is self righting and safe, then I hope you succeed as it would be a worthwhile acchievement should you get it right.
    Unfortunately the only real way to see if something works as designed is to throw money at it, get it built, and then get rich off the patent. :)
     
  7. P Flados
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    P Flados Senior Member

    The shunting Proa is also my personal choice (and the most likely for me to try my hand at) for a similar function to what the flying canting keel provides.

    I dream of things like:

    15' main hull & rig (wing?) windward (no need for ultra light construction as the weight of these components provide righting moment). Main hull has two full rotation capable vertical foils, "forward" foil is locked & "rear" foil does steering. Long narrow chord on both so that helm imbalance is not a major problem. Main hull also has single long narrow chord surface piercing daggerboard type inclined foil (two slots – one for each tack – foils is asymmetric section but symmetric one end to the other) inclined ~ 30° for stable hull flying assist.

    Single very structural bi-directional airfoil cross member

    18' leeward ama with two inclined foils. Foils to provide 80 - 90% lift, 10 - 20% side thrust. Foils reduce hull wetted surface and reduce boat pitching. “Lighter is better” does matter for this hull, but is less of a challenge given it's focused primary function (lift only).

    I feel that using foil assist and/or full flying is a big thing. The poor hydrodynamics of the fore/aft symmetric displacement hulls becomes a non-issue and the foils should greatly enhance maintaining roll and pitch stability. Dealing with the need to reverse directions is not real easy, but not insurmountable.
     
  8. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    On-deck movable ballast

    One aspect of the Trapwing concept many may not realize is the very large crew weight range-probably the largest of any high performance dinghy without having to change the rig. The crew doesn't significantly contribute to RM(except thru Veal Heel in a foiler version) and therefore the weight range could be 100- to 250lb or so.
    ==============
    It also seems to me that in larger versions of boats using this kind of concept that it would take far less energy to move ballast horizontally than it does to move a canting keel 180 degrees. And while I think the Whitehouse/Richards Lake Racer and Q are innovative I don't thing they would have the ability to make as quick changes in RM as an on-deck system can make. When a 180 degree canting keel is max out it has to move substantially to change RM even a little, whereas an on-deck system can move much faster making changes very quickly.
    If you take an on-deck system and combine it with DSS you're creating a monohull with close to max potential performance. With carefull design and using a simple minimum ballast fixed keel, knockdown stability could be very great, and the boat even self-righting.

    Renders-Bethwaites Pterodactyl: Coutts wanted movable lead, Bethwaite movable water both inside the forward(and maybe aft) beam:
     

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  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Trapwing self-righting concept movie

    Took a movie today of the small Trapwing model self-righting from past 90 degrees with the wing deployed down. At this scale the boat is substantially heavier than the actual boat(twice) and the wing weight is heavier(twice) than on the actual boat but the ballast CG is only half way down the wing(that is, it isn't at the bottom) and of course there is no mast. Because of the extra weight the righting action of the wing is equivalent to a scale amount of weight being at the lowest part of the wing. It illustrates the concept perfectly with heavier than scale weight-in other words the performance is better than could be expected for such a relatively heavy model.
    Here it is: (PS thanks to Jeff for helping me to get this posted see here for more info: see posts 5-7 http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/fo...s/upload-video-question-35784.html#post560923 )



    From a previous post, discounted by some "experts":

     

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    Last edited: Jun 11, 2012
  10. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Flying Canting Keel

    From the front page of SA: ( http://www.sailinganarchy.com/index_page1.php )

    This is Stravaganza, a fast lake racer, designed by Jo Richards, built by Cantiere Galetti in Sirmione (Garda Lake). 12.7 m long, 2.5 m wide, 22m Southern Spars mast, huge sail area (close to TP52..!!!), flying keel (4.05m + 1 ton bulb). Not so easy to solve problems about the flying keel system though...!

    See first post of this thread....

    click: ( pix 3&4 renderings from Guy Whitehouse/Jo Richards)
     

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  11. sean9c
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    sean9c Senior Member

    Saw that on SA, that's quite the structure on deck, it'd be interesting to see better pictures of it
     
  12. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

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  13. sean9c
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    sean9c Senior Member

    When I see pics of these lake boats what always amazes me is what a beautiful place that must be to sail and freshwater. Wow
     
  14. CutOnce

    CutOnce Previous Member

    Living inland where I do (Ontario, Canada) I forget what it is like on saltwater. I did a local skiff regatta with a guy from Boston, and after we sailed for the day, he asked me if we were going to wash down the boat before putting it to bed. I told him "That's what we just did for six hours!".

    --
    CutOnce
     

  15. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Stravaganza

    Another picture:
     

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