Fly a boat exercise

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Saqa, Jun 3, 2021.

  1. Saqa
    Joined: Oct 2013
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    Location: Hervey Bay

    Saqa Senior Member

    Hi all
    I started some discussions recently about flying a boat of various types. Let's examine some concepts, including an idea that I have

    Some recent thoughts in the discussion

    Kite driven WIG
    Not feasible, how do you go anything but downwind :/

    Parraglider
    Issues?

    Hanglider/boat Hybrid
    Already a number of built examples that seem to fare quite well

    Ultralight Seaplane or Flying boat
    Safety issues

    Blimpy
    Helium expenses

    The Keyboard Warrior
    This is my latest thinking spiral;

    Imagine an ultralight foam/carbon composite pod a bit like this one found online for two and a bit seater
    [​IMG]submarines-submersibles by Jonny TooBad, on Flickr
    Now taper the base of that pod merging into the lower foil unit so that some of the occupants body weight can be lowered into the keel area. I am leaning toward only heads above sheer line (is this correctly used terminology? Please educate). Slim windscreen instead of full canopy

    Three masts mounted to the pod. Mast height to clear the occupants heads by another head height. One mast each mounted to the front quarter edge of each side of the pod. Third mast on the back of the pod

    Masts to have a sealed bearing fitted runner rail system

    Lower foil unit to carry submersible electric motor pair wing mounted. Air props

    Have a look at these sci-fi pics found online
    [​IMG]41c01a_4e1f175ea05e4ca788b1fa2c7a3ccd11~mv2_d_2464_1632_s_2 by Jonny TooBad, on Flickr
    [​IMG]MS-Star-Cruiser-MK2A by Jonny TooBad, on Flickr
    First pic gives an idea of how the lower foil unit can look
    Second pic is just a rough idea of overall shape once an inflatable collar is attached to the pod mast runners

    Inflatable collar overall shape resembling a longer than its wide eagle ray type shape made up of four lengthwise parallel chambers. Nylon fabric doped. Each chamber to have access ports with hatches

    Each chamber to have an internal aluminium spine running in the centre lengthwise, with a domestic types box fan heater fitted. Hatch covers to provide mounting for the air and power lines

    Collar setup
    Entire collar unit to have a foil profile just like an eagle ray
    Air can be added or removed on the fly with cockpit controls with an air pump and taps for each chamber. An electronics board that will control "float" and "fly" pressures and temperatures with presets and sensors

    Collar to be attached to the mast rails so that it can be in plane with the pod at float, but rise up above head height as lift initially develops. I imagine this will create a great COG to minimise flipping and if it flips than just tuck heads down and splash safely :)

    Hollow foil for seawater ballast reasons

    I imagine that the hot air makes the craft lighter. Volume with dictate how much lighter. To be examined in detail!

    In my vision the props push water and create forward movement and lift develops raising the collar above head height. As the wings plane up the props transition from water to air and hopefully some liftoff

    Reason for prop on lower foil unit more COG effects

    Power
    Custom generator to run heaters and motor i.e. a suitable 4-stroke engine, some customised alternators and electronics

    Controls
    Lever that goes from "ground" to "rise" with curves that adjust pressure and temp
    Throttle lever with reverse for braking and reversing
    Steering wheel that rotates the whole foil unit
    7" sounder/GPS combo
    Small reservoir battery for the electronics

    I must admit that I have absolutely no idea about this. I have worked for Achilles inflatables in the past as well as I have build an inflateble boat before and have also made one by shaping a large block of polystyrene and glassing. I am competent with electrics to assembling audio circuits and 240v wiring. Its just a flight of fancy :D

    Let's hear your ideas
     
  2. Saqa
    Joined: Oct 2013
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    Saqa Senior Member

    Dejay
    Please allow dragging your thoughts into this new line of thought...

    The WoopyFly looks very easily achievable. It's a fine example and I bet the inflatable wings would be a great safety feature to absorb impacts with water. Something to seriously ponder in my opinion

    I can actually imagine building one as the first proof of concept as it just may then accommodate further developments like fan heaters. I think if the craft does not have to lift its own weight than all the available energy can go towards extending range. Also, if the wing and canoe deck is covered in flex solar panels then that can also extend range
     
  3. Dejay
    Joined: Mar 2018
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    Dejay Senior Newbie

    That you could make your own inflatable wing is pretty cool and could be useful to build an ultralight wing. But you'd still need a viable design first.

    Also with an inflatable wing I don't think you can use flexible solar panels since they bend only in one direction at a time. And inflatable wings probably add extra drag and also have to be bulky, so they might be slower or less efficient at speed than a hang glider. But they would be deflatable. Maybe something like the Equator P2 XCursion with inflatable wings could work.

    I'm not sure what you are aiming at, a WIG craft or an ultralight airplane?
    Also I don't know what you mean with collar?
    And what you mean with foil? A hydrofoil? Or a wing?
    What you mean with "fan heaters"?

    For an airplane / seaplane you need long wings with high aspect ratio to reduce drag. For a WIG it's more a square aspect ratio because of ground effect. So presumably the shapes you linked are meant to be WIG? But a major concern is stability, center of lift, center of gravity and such things. There are "flying wing" designs but they have major stability issues.

    So you need to learn more about aeronautical engineering and look at existing design to understand the basics first. Then look at something like XFLR5. Then you'd build this as an RC model to validate the design. If that flies your larger design should work too but then you need to do the structural engineering and keep weight down.

    Keep in might I only have the shallowest understanding about this.

    PS: On the other hand this stingray inflatable aircraft looks like that 3D model you posted lol. But they spend a lot of money and time on this.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2021
  4. Saqa
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    Saqa Senior Member

    Interesting project that one. In our case we don't need that kind of altitude, just safely clearing the waves would do
     
  5. Saqa
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    Saqa Senior Member

    I have been doing some figuring out on this. Looks the best reduction with hot air I can achieve would be around a third off the overall weight. 600kg will be about 400kg on the scales once heated up. Would this be enough to make a skimmer? I dont know
     
  6. Saqa
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    Saqa Senior Member

    First drawing of a kite like RIB. The rigid part will be the shoe under the keel and will also rise through the inflatable part to create a small cockpit

    [​IMG]rib001 by Jonny TooBad, on Flickr

    [​IMG]rib002 by Jonny TooBad, on Flickr

    I still have to draw the top surface
     
  7. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    Impressive artwork imo
     
  8. dreamingbarrierreef
    Joined: Oct 2018
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    Location: Colorado

    dreamingbarrierreef dreamingbarreef

    Since this is intended to fly an important aspect in physics & engineering to start with is perhaps the power-to-weight-ratio. The 1000 c.c. is not heavy but maybe the overall weight within 500kg could be more practical from water. And this means with a good WIG aerodynamic. You could just wrap aluminum skin on a foam core, and it could be strong enough for one use or a few. Adding more frame or bulkhead and weight start to add up quickly. Control in the air should be something very tricky to solve too. If you're only a few feet from water, reaction time is very limited. Probably have to be more careful with roll than yaw. And better have decent enough radar setup; not good to slam into a container ship or even something smaller. Bro I'm really concerned for your safety here. This is interesting for a mind workout, but just don't feel this project going to be any cheaper or practical than an amphibious ultralight. That's already the best design to fit the purpose afterall. Consider A5 if beauty is to die for (or actually, to massage for). Besides, China is really interested with WIGs. It's fast, comfortable, and fly really low. Fast landing craft for massive troops. Very dangerous at 200km range. And China is good with massive productions. This could become weapon of mass destruction (for a certain small country) if any practical ideas exist & gets out..
     
  9. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    Not an exercise for dilettantes, considering the attendant perils, regardless of what you come up with as a "solution", the difficulty is both taking off and landing in disturbed water, flat water much less problematic.
     
  10. Saqa
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    Saqa Senior Member

    Dreamin,
    Sorry, you might not be up-to-date with my ramblings. The hang glider/inflatable combo is number one on my feasible list. Just trying to get my head around the options. None of these may ever get built, but if a feasible concept does appear, then it could possibly become a future project

    This drawing of the latest iteration of the RIB concept is a skimmer, not a flyer. Like a lean athletic cross between a boston and a WIG. Just a 30' tunnel boat like a sled or planing cat with slightly higher wave clearance. The concept would offer about 10' forward impact cushion with the inflatable bow. I can picture a pair of carbon tubes telescoping into the "rigid" part an attached to the bow from the inside. Air pressure would hold these pair of stringers out and on impact they would slide back into the sockets. About 10-12' of inflated beam will be there, would have to pretty strong gust to pick one side up and flip it. The top surfaces that I haven't drawn in yet will have some downforce at the bow and over the ends of the delta wing tips, most of the air cushion will be in back two thirds increasing approaching the back where the edges come down closer to the water

    Engine will be inboard mounted in front of the cockpit to help COG and the hardware stuff will all be in the forward two thirds of the length. I am thinking under wing ducted air props for COG fed by chain drive from the engine or tail mounted single prop fed by under sole prop shaft to a chain drive at the back raising the power to above the craft to the prop

    Target speed is 30 knot cruise speed. A smaller engine and craft might do the job, more learning needed

    Mr. E, I find that my SW3500 excels in the fishable chop (I won’t go out in very ordinary conditions). It seems to go a touch faster without getting punishing. At a larger and beamer hull, I find it difficult to imagine the problems you mention. Would you explain further, please?
     
  11. mitchgrunes
    Joined: Jul 2020
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    Location: Maryland

    mitchgrunes Junior Member

    Close to the hang glider idea is a "kite surfer". All the videos I've seen, where people dive out of the air onto surf, make that look incredibly dangerous, but maybe that is what makes videos interesting. E.g., search Youtube for

    kite surfing

    It does look like a lot of fun. Definitely athletic.

    Curious - do you mean a hovercraft (which rides a tiny ground effect), or a hydrofoil boat (I still think the hydrofoil kayaks and canoes look cool, though I am probably not athletic enough to power them), or do you actually want to go far above the water, like a commercial sea plane or amphibious helicopter?

    There are very few laws and regulations you have to follow to make and use your own boat. But powered aircraft, in some cases unpowered aircraft, may be different. There are many rules about where and when you can fly, land and take off a powered aircraft, and possibly you need a license. Nowadays, at least in the U.S., there are even rules about where and when you can fly an unpowered aircraft. It gets even worse if you carry a passenger - in some cases you may need to have a licensed aviation mechanic (expensive!) maintain it, and only use flight qualified components. But I'm sure that varies by where you intend to use it. In the U.S., you might look up the rules for piloting, flying and using ultralight aircraft at the Federal Aviation Commision website.
     
  12. Saqa
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    Saqa Senior Member

    Mitch,
    The details are in post #10

    BTW, this is a tunnel boat

    It collects a cushion of compressed air and rides on that. Bit like a hovercraft but without a towards fan. So a larger, wider boat with optimised weight placement to skim a foot or two higher

     
  13. Saqa
    Joined: Oct 2013
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    Saqa Senior Member

    Still pondering.....

    Does the whole boat need to fly?
    What keeps a kite stable?

    Hmmmmm if all the Hardware goes in a mini outboard speed boat drone tractor......
    3m tether pair containing throttle and direction by wire information
    The inflatable tethered to the drone

    Any apparent problems? The inflatable kite would be quite large. Much bigger then tow toys and designed to be stable under tow with two or more tow points
     
  14. dreamingbarrierreef
    Joined: Oct 2018
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    dreamingbarrierreef dreamingbarreef

    Could work. Will be slower. Maybe a lot slower. But will be more comfortable the ride.
     

  15. Saqa
    Joined: Oct 2013
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    Saqa Senior Member

    If I could only load my drawing into a program that can output info like total surface area, volume, resistance......

    A model can be tested towed by the car on grass or sand
     
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