Kite Foiler!?

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Doug Lord, Oct 26, 2005.

  1. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Just saw a discussion about the Flyak on SA and read Dave Culp's response and it suddenly hit me: why wouldn't this thing make a perfect kite foiler? Seems to me it might use a smaller kite that a "kite board" and that it could work with virtually no modification.
    Whatdya think Dave? Or anyone with kite experience....
    Foilkayak.com - Home of The Flyak
    http://www.foilkayak.com/
     
  2. Van Nostrum
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    Van Nostrum Junior Member

    Are you seeing this as the kite is attached to the kayak, or are you seeing it as the person sailing it is holding onto the kite like a kite surfer holds onto a kite, if it's the latter then I believe the person sailing will have many visits to the chiropractor.

    A board provides you with quite good maneuvrability, with this kayak I see it going quickly in one direction (predominantely downwind).
     
  3. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    kitefoilyak

    VN, I'm thinking that it might be dangerous to have the kite attached to the person and am developing a solution that allows the kite to be attached to the boat using a movable system. The system itself and the kite would have means for depowering and/or some sort of emergency release. Some of the newest kites have such a control standard.
    I visualize this thing working with the whole boat heeled away from the kite-and am still working on details.I don't know, for sure, whats possible but seeing the foilyak get up on foils with a guy paddling it suggests to me there is lots of room for experimentation here. There are all kinds of different sizes of kites and it may be possible to make this work upwind and downwind. I'd probably build a fairly high beam to length ratio(12-14/1) kayak-like boat about 12-14' with some form of outriggers..
    I've had the opportunity to watch kite boarders a lot and it seems to me those boards are really draggy; I think a medium to small kite might work on this thing if the safety problems can be solved. One of the benefits is that you can always paddle back if you wind up only going downwind-but I think a low resistance foiler might just be able to perform quite well on all points of "sail".
    If it can be worked out it might be one of the least expensive ways to foil.
     
  4. Van Nostrum
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    Van Nostrum Junior Member

    what you really want is foils that tilt while the kayak stays horizontal, so you move the foils out to leeward, you will have issues with the foils piercing the surface unless they are very deep.
     
  5. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    tilting foiler

    I think it would be relatively simple to heel the whole boat away from the kite allowing the foils to unload the vertical fins similar to the way a Moth is sailed upwind.
    An altitude control system similar to those developed by Bradfield on numerous multifoilers and by Ilett on the Moth monofoiler would keep the foils in water.
    If this(heeling away from the kite) can be done by technique it will be very simple though I'm sure it would take practice to get it right. But at least you probably won't capsize and you can paddle back if necessary.
    I forgot to mention that the thing would be steered by a rudder with a t-foil on it using foot pedals...
     
  6. Van Nostrum
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    Van Nostrum Junior Member

    Doug,

    I think you will end up with a steerable canoe which is full of water or a dry canoe that you cannot steer because you are a few feet away from the pedals.

    As you go higher on the foils your COG is going to move significantly to leeward of your COB, only way you can counter this by moving the COG to windward of the COB, 3 methods:

    1. climbing out onto the outriggers.
    2. moving the foils over to leeward by angling the vertical foil
    3. install self balancing foils on the outriggers so that they keep it flat, however you might save some time and go buy a paddle and a hobie trifoiler that has lost it's rigs.
     
  7. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

  8. Van Nostrum
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    Van Nostrum Junior Member

  9. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Moth technique/ Kitefoilyak technique

    The boat in the picture is using a sail and the one I'm proposing is using a kite ; the point of application of the force from the kite can be where it best suits the design even to the point of being adjustable from side to side or being set up to deliver no heeling moment whatsoever.
    I believe the upwind sailing attitude of both boats will be similar though the force being applied is entirely different between the two.
    Since the force from the kite can be applied to the boat in a number of ways there is great freedom in designing how the boat will function and it is my present hunch that setting it up to sail upwind at a particular angle of heel will be most beneficial.
     
  10. Van Nostrum
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    Van Nostrum Junior Member

    Of course it will be best to sail it at a heel, I'm not disputing that, I'm saying your idea that the guy sitting in the middle will be able to just lean a little to one side and make the thing work is a load of crap.

    Have you watched many kite surfers? It seems that whenever the kite in the power zone they lean backwards, so that their COG moves to windward of their COB, as you would expect, otherwise they will simply get towed head first in the direction the kite wants to go with their board floating in the water hundreds of yards away.

    Why don't you perform some calculations to determine where the COG is compared to the COB on a kite surfer when they are leaning backwards, now if they struggle when they are leaning back and 6' tall then how are you going to achieve the same effect when you are sitting in the middle of a canoe?

    I am aware that you can change the position of where the kite is pulling from, though how exactly are you going to attach it under the canoe, down where the foils are?? For what you want that is where you will need it attached.
     
  11. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    Load of Crap?!

    Really?! I guess I'll have to just forget it..
     
  12. Van Nostrum
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    Van Nostrum Junior Member

    Or you could just tilt the foils out to leeward much the same as a kite surfer does with his legs (moves his board out to leeward)
     
  13. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    A kite system allows great freedom of design; you can probably do what I suggest with a combination of an easily depowered kite with a movable attachment system that allows the point of application of the power of the kite to be more or less infinitely adjustable and "tackable".
    And a lot of practice and experimentation..
     
  14. Doug Lord

    Doug Lord Guest

    technique/kite kayaking

    Check this out-very interesting and describes(and shows) the technique of leaning the boat which I described earlier. No foilers here but good info:
    Amoka Wind Sports Kite Kayaking Kayak Kites
    http://www.amoka.com/kayak.html
     

  15. Van Nostrum
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    Van Nostrum Junior Member

    notice how close the connection (point where kite is pulling from) is to the COB, when you move it away you need to lean harder.
     
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