Finisterre, S&S, Allied Seabreeze and overhangs

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by CapKos, Mar 31, 2009.

  1. CapKos
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    CapKos Junior Member

    Hi All,
    I just crossed the Med with an Allied Seabreeze, and was positively surprised from the excellent stability and seaworthiness of this boat. Allied Seabreeze was designed with the same concept of the famous Finisttere of S&S, and have extremely high overhangs (LOA/LWL = 1.43), large beam 10ft, and relatively low ballast ratio – 0.3. My question is: is it such a boat saves for offshore sailing and possible ocean crossing?
    Cheers,
    CapKos,
    Freelance and Corsair
     
  2. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    is it such a boat saves for offshore sailing and possible ocean crossing?

    With much weathert planning and a bit of LUCK many folks circumnavigating have only seen a 35K breeze or less.

    The North Atlantic in February is a hard place for any boat ,the Caribbean is a different experience.

    Read of other folks voyages.

    We have a Benateau First 32 , at our dock,that crossed the Atlantic in season with style. Hardly any cruisers dream of an ocean crosser , but it works.

    FF

    FF
     
  3. CapKos
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    CapKos Junior Member

    Hi Fred,
    I agree that in the good season it is possible to cross the Atlantic with nearly any boat, but should be good to have a boat able to resist any weather. I am asking mainly because the long overhangs surprise me. I remember that Slocum warning that this is not appropriate in big waves. But actually Finisterre was build exactly for the ocean racing. So I couldn’t understand where is the trick.

    All the best,
    Konstantin
     
  4. Wolf Hound
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    Wolf Hound Junior Member

    Gentlemen,

    This is an old thread, but the discussion here continues to matter.

    Opinions vary, but many experienced seamen prefer the sort of overhangs that a Seabreeze has, because they moderate her motion in a seaway, and add to her buoyancy, enabling her to lift better to the waves.

    With a cutaway forefoot and a relatively shallow keel, her tendency to broach is diminished somewhat, and the negatives of the longer overhangs are accordingly moderated.

    All the best,

    Wolf Hound
     
  5. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    The Allied Seabreeze was a typical CCA approach to design, taking advantage of a few quirks in the rules for ocean racing. The original versions had steering issues and a new rudder solved this and CCA rule changes made short work of the other advantages they enjoyed.

    These yachts were good sea boats, but would get clobbered as sheets eased by modern yachts. Their very generous D/L (440) made them good deep water boats, even if shoalish draft (3' 10"). If the ends were kept free of heavy objects, they fair well in a good slosh in blue water, but maneuverability is lacking compared to modern craft of similar dimensions.

    Welcome to the forum Wolf.
     
  6. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    The apeal of an Allied Seabreeze is that you can purchase one for 20 thousands dollars. Not bad, nice boat.

    After price the Sea breeze is not the best way to cross the ocean on a 35 footer. The sea breeze is a slow, it would take you a month to get accross. ..ocean crossing needs a fast powerful boat. Choose something more modern with good reaching and downwind performance. Choose a boat slightly bigger than you can afford .

    Boats like the Cal 40 are much better.
     

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  7. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I disagree. Many of the old CCA style yachts are fine sea boats, comfortable and well founded. Sure they aren't a modern boat, but in many cases you're prefer to be in one, than a canoe body taking a beating in a rough slosh. I've owned a number of CCA era boats and have a fondness for their motion, accommodation considering typical beam restraints and general sea kindliness. Yep, they have their issues, just like anything else, but they have their good points too, one of which is you can find a good deal on a solid boat without a second mortgage. As far as the SeaBreeze, it wouldn't be my pick, for a few reasons, but I can think of several CCA's that I'd love to own.
     
  8. Wolf Hound
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    Wolf Hound Junior Member

    PAR, which CCA's are at the top of your list, please, and why?

    Wolf Hound
     
  9. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Choices in yachts are fairly speculative at best, but the old S&S Sailmaster 45 (S&S #1618.1), with the upgraded trapezoidal rudder was a fine boat, for the short time I was on it. I can think of many of these old horses that would serve me well, though my priorities for enjoyment, may not be especially rational or appropriate for others. I use to own an early Hinckley Pilot 35 and an all teak Lion class 36 and most I know that have owned one of these, still have fond regards for them. Many, many yachts to choice from in this era. I have a buddy with a Grampion, he couldn't part with and understandably, though I've had my eyes on an old Bounty II for some time, but a Cal 40 is also sparking my interest and is a better performer too . Maybe a Phil Rhodes "Thunderhead" or a Gulfstream 36 or a K Aage Nielsens "Sayonara", possably a Newport 41. There are lots of reasons to like these CCA's, fast enough, comfortable, seakindly, and beautiful. I'd rather cross an ocean (the OP's questions on the subject) in a well thought out CCA then many of the modern offerings, unless I was racing.
     
  10. Wolf Hound
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    Wolf Hound Junior Member

    There's an S & S Sailmaster/Seafarer 45 for sale in Frisco last I knew.

    She's in pretty good original condition, and could perhaps be had for ~$100K.

    IIRC, the present owner bought this boat from Jim Flood who bought DORADE from Olin and Rod in 1936. Apparently, Jim was very instrumental in having these boats built.

    Wolf Hound


    P.S. We used to call the rudder type to which you refer a "Constellation" rudder. Olin Stephens' CONSTELLATION had a radically new rudder shape, differing from the established shape for all previous vessels, which had been a semicircular segment section. CONSTELLATION’s rudder was narrower at the top and wider at the base near the rudder shoe. This allowed for the rudder to bite more firmly on less disturbed water, providing greater control downwind and better laminar flow off the after end of the blade.
     
  11. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    This design revelation came about across the board of several in the era. It did make significant improvements, though the higher aspect trapezoidal shapes seemed to fair better. It wasn't something that lived long, as appendage separation showed up fairly quickly after and things changed dramatically, as the choice of 'glass as a building material, began getting serious engineering understanding and weights went down.
     
  12. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    But actually Finisterre was build exactly for the ocean racing.

    You have to remember a Racing boat is not built to be the fastest boat.

    It is built to measure/rate as a slow boat , and if it sails marginally better , its a "winner".

    Just take a look at basic sail area on an older cruiser , and a more moderrn racer.

    The racer has to carry a spinnaker variant to windward to have the working sail of an earlier boat.

    The older CCA boats were fine sailors and many even had sail area of a reasonable size!

    Remember cruisers need to be able to single hand the boat 95% of the time so the crew can rest.

    Racers think its great sport to hang on the rail to Bermuda.

    How do you like to sail?

    FF
     
  13. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    The modern ocean going sailboat completes its passage and drinks Dark and Stormy's in Bermuda.

    An old time ocean going sailboat is still at sea , battling the dark and Stormy's on its way to Bermuda. .

    Nostalgia is your choice.
     
  14. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    The difference in speed, on an ocean crossing in a modern boat, sailed at cruising pleasure and an old CCA, also sailed at cruising pleasure, isn't significant Micheal, given two boats of similar size and configuration.
     

  15. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Speed , pleasure and comfort are debatable.

    I did 4 transatlantics with a SS swan 65 ketch. Plenty fast. 15 days Gib to Antigua. To keep the speed up I needed 5 sail reaches. A cloud of sails, blisters on your hands from trying to keep the boat under the sails and crew always kept busy trimming or striking a sail.

    When the boss bought a new Ron Holland 70 footer I could keep the speed up with the main, a roller genoa and a book in my hand. .



    In the end its up to the client.

    For me , in the Ocean , a modern reaching, surfing yacht that tracks well under autopilot and can be easily powered is best.

    Inshore under variable conditions and upwind work, where usabilty is the most critical factor, old timers perform fine and may be superior. The Swan was a dream to sail inshore. She had no electric, hydaulic sail controls so crew, guest involvement, pleasure was much greater.
     
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