Filipino style trimaran

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by samytee, Mar 27, 2018.

  1. samytee
    Joined: Mar 2018
    Posts: 2
    Likes: 0, Points: 1
    Location: Indonesia

    samytee New Member

    Hi Forum. Just want to say hello to eveyone here and it’s a pleasure to join the forum.

    I am looking at building or at least refurbing a boat here in Indonesia primarily so I can travel around the islands but secondly to make this into a niche business.

    I have look at several types of boats including the beautiful phinisi schooners made from hardwood and teak, they are stunning. And luxurious inside and from what I am told a great investment. However they are not what I am looking for. They are out of my budget, which means that I cannot target the market I am going for.

    The most suitable design of boat I have seem while travelling around south east Asia is the Filipino Bangca boat. Which is essentially a trimaran or a huge outrigger canoe.

    The specifications I have include low cost, quick to build, inboard diesel, lightweight, shallow hull so that it’s easy to beach and can fly over shallow reefs. 15-20 meters long and lots of above deck space. Of course with outriggers, floaty hulls ot bamboos.

    I don’t require below deck cabins, luxury living, air conditioning etc etc. This is going to be bunk beds, hammocks and bean bags style.

    I honestly cannot think of any other design which suits more.

    My only question is doing any types of crossing in this boat. Specifically the crossing from philipines to Indonesia and then some of the large seas (such as the seram sea and banda sea in Indonesia.

    I will be following the weather and not the schedule when it comes to operating it. But from you guys knowledge what do you think a boat like I am describing is capable of regarding rough seas and the angle of the waves.

    Also has anyone got any experience in building these types of boats or any input at all?

    Thanks for reading. Look forward to speaking to you guys!
     
  2. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 5,752
    Likes: 265, Points: 83, Legacy Rep: 2488
    Location: Japan

    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    Hi Samytee

    Welcome to the forum.

    I know those Philippine Banca's very well. Have been on many in my time. They do cope with heavy weather well. But like all boats, they have their limitations and depends upon the final configuration too. What sea states are you thinking of?
     
  3. samytee
    Joined: Mar 2018
    Posts: 2
    Likes: 0, Points: 1
    Location: Indonesia

    samytee New Member

    Hi there. Thanks for the reply. And that’s good information to know.

    Basically if I was to do a 12 hour open water crossing and the wind started to whip up the waves or if there was some sudden swell coming in and I was unable to hide. I just want to know how it would respond. Not really for comfort but more of a safety kind of thing.

    Like I said the boat would be following seasonal weather especially for crossings and I wouldn’t be taking guests with strict schedules. I just want to make sure that a well built boat of that size and style would handle it.

    Cheers

    Sam
     
  4. rxcomposite
    Joined: Jan 2005
    Posts: 1,815
    Likes: 122, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1110
    Location: Philippines

    rxcomposite Senior Member

    Dr. Glenn Aguilar, a Filipino who studied in University of Tokyo, has written many articles on the safety/design improvement of the Philippine banca. Much of his work has been carried out in a test tank in Japan. I know he has uploaded most of his work in the web but could not find it at the moment. If you are interested, this might lead to the link or I will write to him for the list of articles.

    Aguilar, G.D. (2006). The Philippine Indigenous Outrigger Boat: Scaling Up, Performance and Safety. Marine Technology Society Journal, DOI: 10.4031/002533206787353277 (Vol. 40 3).
     
    Ilan Voyager and JosephT like this.
  5. JosephT
    Joined: Jun 2009
    Posts: 736
    Likes: 66, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 218
    Location: Roaring Forties

    JosephT Senior Member

    https://www.researchgate.net/profil...ance-and-Safety.pdf?origin=publication_detail
     
    rxcomposite likes this.
  6. JosephT
    Joined: Jun 2009
    Posts: 736
    Likes: 66, Points: 28, Legacy Rep: 218
    Location: Roaring Forties

    JosephT Senior Member

    Some suggestions samytee:

    1. If you take shelter below decks in a storm be sure to reduce sail area. Only a small sail area is needed in storm conditions to avoid overpowering the mainsail.
    2. Consider a drogue chute off the stern to help keep the boat perpendicular to waves.
    3. Obviously avoid passage during stormy/typhoon seasons - check the long range weather & wind forecasts.
    4. Bring storm gear (foul weather clothing, offshore life vest/PFD), tether. In a storm, stay on the helm and keep that hull perpendicular with the waves.
    5. Bring sufficient crew to manage the vessel and rotate the helm position.
    6. As with any offshore passage vessel, highly recommend an emergency life raft & emergency provisions (satellite communication - e.g. Garmin inReach, EPIRB, water, food).
    7. Train in local waters until until you're prepared and confident.

    Unlike a monohull, catamarans & trimarans may never be able to come upright again if capsized, which means you could be stranded. You want to avoid a capsize at all costs. The reference above mentioned by rxcomposite suggests a steel hull for the "super-hulbot". You can't go wrong with that, but it will still not address a potential capsize.

    Good luck on the strong ship, safe passage & fair winds.
     
  7. rxcomposite
    Joined: Jan 2005
    Posts: 1,815
    Likes: 122, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1110
    Location: Philippines

    rxcomposite Senior Member

    Thanks Joseph T
     
  8. chinaseapirate

    chinaseapirate Previous Member

    I just looked over all the images for large Indonesian boats. This was the largest outrigger style trimaran. Seems to me the locals there could build what you want, although the Filipino builders have many more styles most of which appear more comfortable in heavy weather.
    Indonesia:
    West Sumatra, Padang | Bjorn Grotting Photography http://bjorngrotting.photoshelter.com/image/I00006zg6DYsxy.E

    Philippines:
    [​IMG]
    The Indonesian boat looks about 15m and is a lot wider and heavier hull. It may in fact be 4+ meters wide and self stable without the outriggers. I think they are there just to walk on while fishing. They got all those lights I bet they are fishing anchovies and squid 10 to 50miles of shore "between islands". I saw one just like it in Palau (500 knots offshore from Indonesia) without the outriggers. They were confined to their boat waiting for "bail".

    The two Filipino boats above are about 20 meters long and less than 2 meters wide at the deck. So they just have the 16 hsp briggs stratton in it. Those skipper can completely swamp these boats and rebuild the engine at sea. There is least 15,000 lbs of buoyancy in all that bamboo. On a 10,000 lbs boat...you couldn't capsize or sink them if you tried. UV rays on nylon used to bother me but locals strongly vetoed me on that one so...

    Then again...there are plenty of landlubber designed boats in Philippines also. This just in - April 4, 2018
    [​IMG]
    Here we have 16 meter loaded waterline boat that capsized yesterday, apparently within minutes of leaving port. 119 passengers aboard and generally Filipinos carry as much as they physically can when paying cash to go anywhere. Newspapers are reporting "it was overloaded". Damn, it was designed guaranteed be overloaded constantly. 36 people couldn't swim to shore or find lifejackets died. Maybe trapped below water even.
    upload_2018-4-4_6-58-4.jpeg [​IMG]

    In addition to being to way too tall and fat for those beams its waterlogged. Looks like they are being rescued by a captain that had more knowledge about stability. He only put a couple tents up top, not a full upper deck outfitted with a fixed capsize assist sail...

    Anyways... Do you speak Malay or Filipino? I ask because the obvious choice to save money would be to have a local builder build it or do it yourself with help. If you need plans in English just order Wharram's Pahi 63 or Islander 65 study plans and build/explain off those. If you really think you will have enough people to lift the boat up/down the beach every time you come ashore you won't need to glass anything. I built a 70 foot Philippine "style" bangka in Romblon, Philippines in 2003. The "wood" and labor bill was incredibly low. I spent $150 dollars a week supporting my family and on an average of 3 workers 5 days a week. Had the boat basically done in 4 months including numerous trips away from the "boatyard". Then it took 3 more months to get the engine, paint, steering wheel, rudder and misc things done. We sailed (motored) it through the islands and across the "Philippine Sea" about 1500 knots to Saipan where I ran into difficulties with "authorities" and scrapped it rather then let the asswholes keep it.

    I can't really tell you how wet it would have got in "rough" conditions, because we never really had any. Sea state 4-5 most of the trip. It might have reached 6 one night because there were quite a few more white caps, some faint streaks and the steering got very sluggish. I had to flip a Uey twice and rev the engine to bring it back on coarse which was limited to about 25 degrees either side of head on which, although wide awake, I had difficulty maintaining due to an experimental twin rudder set up. I had them placed on both sides of the huge 30" propeller. I could have just went faster to maintain better steering but everyone was asleep including 2 on deck! No water, spray, slamming, nothing...at 8.5 knots across the ground 2gph fuel burn. I can tell you that mutihulls are scary in large beam seas and low displacement amas are probably outright dangerous, at least with sails. But then again I may be spoiled, Ive never been in a monohull in large beam seas and monohulls roll all over the place in any seas.

    email me, if you want, I speak semi-fluent Filipino. chinaseapirate@yahoo.com

    [​IMG]

    my favorite!! best guess...P1 million ($20,000) 21 meters LOA 11,000 lbs empty, 2" thick semi flat bottom 6D22 mitsubishi diesel(used purchase). 25+ knots max, 7-9 knots through anything.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
    kerosene likes this.
  9. dsigned
    Joined: Aug 2017
    Posts: 141
    Likes: 7, Points: 18
    Location: United States

    dsigned O.R.C. Hunter

    I'll second a Wharram in the Philippines. Close enough to a Banka that there probably won't be too much trouble building the hulls and interior. More difficult might be sourcing good hardware, although you can find almost anything in the Philippines if you look hard enough.
     
  10. chinaseapirate

    chinaseapirate Previous Member

    Dr Aguilar's study does not contradict anything that i know by experience, however...he is not a mariner, and his recorded data was only useful for comparing one poorly designed bangka (when scaled up). I say this on a basis of veritable FACT and not by opinion. Any superior designed (mga)bangka like two of the four pictures above(well, one of the four disappeared. you can click the link still - eye candy) will immediately capsize if you remove their outriggers!! FACTOLA. He basically gave data comparable to the capsized passenger ferry in my first post. And I agree with what he found as true even his conclusions that the outriggers will invariably rip apart in really bad weather. But, apples and oranges, If you put outriggers on a monohull like good Dr. described is his experiments, that in no way reflects what happens when you connect significantly larger/wider/stronger/ outriggers to a significantly lower displacement hull. The outriggers and crossbeams should toy with the main hull in rough weather. That first example Filipino bangka, the one that looks like a refuge for homeless, is by far the most seaworthy of the four boat pictures. My favorite, with the European design modifications, is a tossup for 2nd place with the much heavier Indonesian fishing boat for 2nd. But if you combine safety AND comfort I would rate it #1. Dr. Aguilar's report should be re-titled - "Propaganda to discredit my country's boat designs". his Fig. 5 picture is what you should be looking at not his data results.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2018
  11. rxcomposite
    Joined: Jan 2005
    Posts: 1,815
    Likes: 122, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1110
    Location: Philippines

    rxcomposite Senior Member

    Chinaseapirate- You are shooting from the hip and it seems you did not fully read or understood the article. Dr. Glenn Aguilar wrote the article for academic purposes with the discipline of a Naval Architect. Nowhere can I find that he basically gave data on the capsized ferry boat as there is no hull form(s) described, just data on length and tonnage of different bancas in specific regions of the Philippines. Nowhere in the article can I find a discussion on what is a good design or not. It is only you trying to tie it into the article.

    His experimental data on the static stability and seakeeping was made in a test tank in Japan. While the hull was derived from a local design, the experiment in no way discredit the Philippine design. Just a scientific study on the wave response of a similar trimaran and as the remainder of the article.

    You can try and analyze any design you can "think" of but without any refutable or scientific data, it will remain "I think.......".
     
  12. chinaseapirate

    chinaseapirate Previous Member

    I will not purchase liferaft(s) for anything I build. survival suit ok.
     
  13. rxcomposite
    Joined: Jan 2005
    Posts: 1,815
    Likes: 122, Points: 63, Legacy Rep: 1110
    Location: Philippines

    rxcomposite Senior Member

    Chinaseapirate you posted>If one can not take my word for that than enjoy your uninformed "academic" musings.
    No offense taken by your comment, you are positively correct, but if there is a wish to "reverse engineer" the length, draft, displacement, overall width of Dr. Aguilars model, believe me, it is there in the data results, metacentric height, and length of model given. Sounds like a wide heavy loaded canoe to me .
    If it was form stable- which he stated that it was- the data (not bad data at all-even losing to a monohull in "heavy 2inch seas) was presented as evidence, without any plausible context elsewhere to draw conclusions for an uniformed reader. Global Warming toilet paper on a minor scale.

    He was granted money by (Japanese Wave Rider Inc and Boston Whaler) to publish propaganda- either that or his girlfriend wanted him too.<


    In the article, there is no mention of displacement or other parameters. Only the model size which is 3 meter long. You don't put actual size boats in basin test. The rest of the data are ratios and proportions as a method for scaling up. Other data are calculated. The full test report is on another paper and is available in the State University.

    The stability mentioned was at small sea state, not "heavy 2 inch seas". To a trained Naval Architect or boat designers, the results are easy to interpolate. To a layman/boatbuilder, the article provides information on current trend and methods and its weaknesses, to the regulating agencies, it serves as a basis to establish safety concerns. The article ends calling for establishing criteria for the indigenous Philippine outrigger form.

    Once again you are throwing false accusations and innuendoes. The study was under the Japan Society for the Promotion of Science by Dr. Aguilar with Prof. Ritsuo Shigehiro. Tank tests were at the National Research Inst for Fisheries Engineering at Ibaraki, Japan. Gyro tests on actual boats in Miagao Philippines and almost 10 years hull testing and analysis at University of the Philippines Visayas. So where are the sponsors?

    You have a right to your own opinion but you have no right to malign a person who has done nothing wrong to you nor ridicule a country for the traditional way of doing things.
     
  14. Ad Hoc
    Joined: Oct 2008
    Posts: 5,752
    Likes: 265, Points: 83, Legacy Rep: 2488
    Location: Japan

    Ad Hoc Naval Architect

    20 knots sure.
    60 knots...no chance. Utter nonsense.
     

  15. chinaseapirate

    chinaseapirate Previous Member

    [​IMG]thats the "long range" three man version. check out philippine bangka racing 45-50 knots -16 hsp pa rin. well 16 hsp "blocks" i dought they get past 35hsp in them - thats "top secret stuff...they get $100 and $200 prixe money and and new engine for championships...
     
Loading...
Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.