Ferrocement Ramform Hull design help needed

Discussion in 'Projects & Proposals' started by phrogjlf@yahoo, Sep 18, 2017.

  1. phrogjlf@yahoo
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    phrogjlf@yahoo JL Frusha

    Part of a larger intended project, to be semi-permanently moored in the Gulf of Mexico to demonstrate feasibility for IMTA with onsite monitoring, harvesting of kelp, fish feeding and caged fish production.

    This is a private project, I have no funding, but certified hull plans would be a booster-shot to the project. Still trying to find an appropriate place to build and launch from, as well.

    Ramform Hull was chosen for low-speed characteristics and stable platform even in adverse weather, as shown in the North Sea, one of which was converted to FPSO and a turret mooring system.

    IMTA: Integrated Multi-Trophic Aquaculture
    FPSO: Fixed Pumping Storage and Offloading

    I've worked to develop a 'yacht' suitable-as a feasibility demonstration platform. Long-term goal is to be able to expand the vessel size to provide for more personnel and equipment, to remain on-station during all but severest weather events, such as hurricanes.

    Position would use a charted, marked permanent mooring, off traffic lanes. Also, the plan specifies for a telescoping mast for marker lights and antennae.

     
  2. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Hi JL

    Welcome to the Forum.

    This is a subject of some interest to me. Like many innovative ideas, the concept of "no funding" appears high on the Statement of Requirements list of most of these sort of ideas in these forums.

    The concept of static moored production platforms has been around a long time, and a crowd in New York is getting their version underway soon as well, to produce power and grow seaweed etc.

    The earliest experiment of power/fish production I have heard of was a Frenchman in the 1930's. His first prototype was a resounding success, but of course he saw a whole lot better methods that made his first attempt fairly obsolete. So, he did the most economical thing and sunk the whole lot of ship and gear to save transport costs, and went back to France alone to raise finance for a much better setup. Unfortunately, it didn't progress past there.

    For your project, at the risk of appearing condescending, may I humbly suggest that you have gotten the wrong end of the process. Some sort of exotic, self designed concept boat is the LAST thing you want to be considering, especially with the "no funding" problem, if you are serious about establishing what is a pioneering enterprise.

    May I suggest that you should be looking at large, substantial and seaworthy second hand barges, oil drill setups etc which must be pretty common in the area, and fit one of them out cheaply. This will solve your certification problems as well, having been commercial vessels to start with. Also, as you operation will be a semi industrial operation, the ability to patch/modify/redesign in steel as you develop your systems will be a major benefit.

    IF you are serious, you will also need some sort of business plan to show to would be financiers. There are all sorts of amazing things happening at crowd funding sites, and a surprising number of astute forward looking business financiers.
     
  3. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    You could hardly call that large enough to be a habitable proposition in all weathers. The pay better be good ! :eek:
     
  4. phrogjlf@yahoo
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    phrogjlf@yahoo JL Frusha

    If I had millions to throw at it, I wouldn't be asking for help. Even at the low end, this hull alone would cost the equivalent of a modest home. I understand that. However, the properties of this hull, as per design specs in the patents, make it far more applicable.

    Even small, reliable used barges run over 5 times what I expect this to cost, total. The ability to moor and leave as needed outweighs the additional cost and even space availability.

    As for habitability, and pay, as a demonstration platform, it would be me at risk, not a paid crew. At 200% this size, it could potentially house a full-time crew of 8, but 4-6 would be my guess.
     
  5. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    Forgetting the boat, what similar precedents are there, for this envisaged venture ?
     
  6. phrogjlf@yahoo
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    phrogjlf@yahoo JL Frusha

    Actually, there are numerous ventures for commercially raising fish offshore, around the globe. Hawaii and Norway being prominent. The issue isn't raising fish, so much as mitigating pollution, reducing reliance on medications for stress, disease and parasitic infestations and reducing the reliance on grain as a feed source. Mitigating wastes being mostly fish feces pollution. That is expected, if not existing legislation, I haven't kept up to date on that aspect, just planned ahead for it, instead.

    Providing a suitable habitat, akin to planting suitable grazing for livestock, is essential to the process. To further that, say you also grow hay for Winter feeding... Alfalfa is prime stuff. Alfalfa has the highest protein value of the various hay types, thus the higher profit margin per acre grown. However, there are insects that love Alfalfa that can kill cattle, in certain climates.

    I have worked some of this out with people from several US and Canadian universities, while considering various locations, and even spoke with one person with NOAA, though species choices are highly location dependent. Temperatures, nutrients, and other conditions make that highly variable, as well as where in the waters it might be located (State vs US limits, etc.).
     
  7. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Ecofys launches test module for seaweed cultivation in offshore wind farms - Ecofys http://www.ecofys.com/en/press/ecofys-launches-trial-module-for-seaweed-cultivation-in-offshore-wind-farm/

    Concept study for offshore seaweed farming: Design and feasibility study for large scale mechanized seaweed cultivation systems | TU Delft Repositories https://repository.tudelft.nl/islandora/object/uuid%3A5e986b1d-c509-4153-9b0e-823f3e4c154a

    Just Google Offshore Ocean Farms, for a huge list of projects.


    For a bit of History on Ocean Thermal Energy Conversion, which often goes along with fish and seaweed farming

    "Attempts to develop and refine OTEC technology started in the 1880s. In 1881, Jacques Arsene d'Arsonval, a French physicist, proposed tapping the thermal energy of the ocean. D'Arsonval's student, Georges Claude, built the first OTEC plant, in Matanzas, Cuba in 1930.[3][4] The system generated 22 kW of electricity with a low-pressure turbine.[5] The plant was later destroyed in a storm.[6]

    In 1935, Claude constructed a plant aboard a 10,000-ton cargo vessel moored off the coast of Brazil. Weather and waves destroyed it before it could generate net power."

    Ocean thermal energy conversion - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_thermal_energy_conversion
     
  8. phrogjlf@yahoo
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    phrogjlf@yahoo JL Frusha

    The bulb can be cored in foam, if necessary.

    Actually, I had a quote on lines for modeling, at $2,850 and hull plans for $12,850 quoted by a well known Marine Architect. I'm not at liberty to give you his name, unless you take on the project, at which point I would forward those emails.

    Materials alone for the hull, should come in under $150,000; while finishing out should come in around that same amount. Net materials and commercially drawn blueprints should CME in under $315,000.

    Labor is mostly a matter of location. China would be different than Eastern Europe, the US would be different, as well. However, I figure it would be done using the gunnite/shotcrete spray over armature, then smoothed by plasterers, so the majority of the labor is in building the armature.
     
  9. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    They seem quite reasonable prices, but there are plenty of longer, wider motorized steel barges for half that price here BARGES FOR SALE http://www.maritimesales.com/Barges%20for%20sale.htm for example.

    I'll tell you what I told Will when I forecast that his sub would never see the water - anyone wanting a tough, economic and versatile working craft that doesn't choose steel is in for a big disappointment.
     
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  10. phrogjlf@yahoo
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    phrogjlf@yahoo JL Frusha

    As for steel, how many steel hulls have been around and still in use since WW I and/or WW II? Not many, granted, there aren't many ferrocement hulls that can say that, but there were far fewer made for the war effort. Some ARE still in service, if only as maintained for a floating breakwater in Canada.
    Concrete Ships: The Powell River Floating Breakwater http://www.concreteships.org/ships/powellriver/

    Point being that, with proper design and maintenance, anything can be done in almost any material.

    Materials science being what it is, there are steel alloys that do things they couldn't 100 years ago, while there are cement mixes that are more resilient and capable of being used better than the older formulas, as well. Just because a material does not suit your tastes, does not indicate that it is not suitable for application. In fact, ferrocement is lighter than steel, being a composite, rather than a dense solid. As I have shown, it would still be expensive, but that's not the point.

    I freely admit there are/were a lot of improperly prepared, poorly made ferrocement hulls, especially the amateur-built models of the 1960s and '70s. There may STILL be poorly built ferrocement hulls by amateurs, that is not my problem.

    I have, and continue to ask for help, not harassment. I do not HAVE thousands of dollars for a set of plans, which is the whole reason behind the initial post seeking to get such plans made. Someone needs to add to their portfolio, I need a certified set of plans to my specifications. WITH such plans, there is increased probability of obtaining the backing I need, for my venture. I chose based on my criteria. It is not some high-performance cruiser, it is not intended to make vast journeys, it is intended to validate the choices I made.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
  11. phrogjlf@yahoo
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    phrogjlf@yahoo JL Frusha

    Typically, fish farms consist of cages of hatchery stock, fed from used grain byproducts. My goal is to avoid having to purchase grain products, which are not natural fish food, anyway. However, if I grow Kelp, and feed it to such species that consume it, and feed them to such species that consume them, then I can utilize the nutrients available in the water, to grow the food necessary for marketable seafood products. In addition, by using Kelp downstream of the fish pens, I can utilize the wastes of those fish pens, as a source of nutrition for the Kelp, as well as eliminate the current problem of fish pens polluting the environment further. This is also in compliance with either existing, or pending legislation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
  12. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    So, everyone should agree with you, or take a hike ? :rolleyes: Don't take that attitude to the bank when you seek funding.
     
  13. phrogjlf@yahoo
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    phrogjlf@yahoo JL Frusha

    I did not pick any argument, you jumped in all on your own. However, despite the information you asked for and received. I notice, regardless of the number of posts you have made, you joined this forum years after I did. Just because a person is not vociferous, does not necessarily indicate they are not well versed. However, the squeaky wheel often gets the grease.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
  14. Mr Efficiency
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    Mr Efficiency Senior Member

    R Watson's posts seemed apposite to me, and did not deserve the hostile reaction.
     

  15. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    "You imply I need OTEC" No I didn't, I just included it as a list of reasons for offshore platforms.

    "I have, and continue to ask for help, not harassment. I do not HAVE thousands of dollars for a set of plans, "
    If you regard my experienced advice as harassment, I am sorry - but I am still ... how shall I say it -- right !

    I stand by my original comment, If you have no money, then my comment about doing something as "off the plan" as this unproven, pioneering "object" that costs TWICE as much as a commercially proven, certified solution, then its not going to happen.

    Goodness knows what sort of help you are expecting. IMHO you would be better off submitting your business plan ( you DO have a business plan - right ? ) first, and then getting advice on how to proceed, and worry about the boat bit later.
     
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