Fer-A-Lite

Discussion in 'Materials' started by darr, Sep 3, 2010.

  1. darr
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    Location: Tampa, FL

    darr Open Minded


    No, according to the various MSDS sheets of the core components they are no longer listed on the list of asbestos related products.

    The PDF is a digital edition of Platt's 2nd edition, at that time of print one of the core components was listed on the list of asbestos related products.

    When time and money permits we want to put out a 3rd edition with the corrected data.
     
    1 person likes this.
  2. peter radclyffe
    Joined: Mar 2009
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    Location: europe

    peter radclyffe Senior Member

    well thats very strong if it will take a maul
     
  3. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    Darr,

    Price?
    How much REAL time to built a 36' with how many people?
    Price of the material ?
    Weight of the hull finished?
    Scantling?
    Deck scantling?
    Control temperature needed to built it?
    Did you built one yourself?
    If yes which design?
    How long yourself you have experience with this method?
    How you deal with ballast?
    How you deal with chain plates?
    Mast step?

    And please keep the maul story for yourself, it is always the the same story from salesman who do not know their product. To hit something with a maul as nothing to do with strength. It has more to do with ignorance.

    Daniel
     
  4. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    That was a politicians reply!

    The question is still unanswered.

    To the method:
    I still do not buy your claims about strength in a marine environment, due to the rather poor properties of polyester which you cannot circumnavigate. And Mike already pointed towards related issues.

    But be it as it is.
    The method is not a sensible choice for professional boatbuilding in general. As Ferro Cement is not.

    I would not even use it when the material and labour would be for free! In the price range and market segment we are talking:
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/boat-design/perfect-passagemaker-ii-building-material-34265.html
    it is just not worth to offer something the customer does not trust in.
    And spending a vessels value on ad´s to sell a craft with half the market value (I doubt it will even be taxed in that range) of a common built is insane.
    Hence mute to discuss with me.

    Don´t waste your time to convince me! My biased opinions* are rock solid and will change only when the world turns the other way round.

    Regards
    Richard
    *sure you will play that card.....
     
  5. darr
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    Location: Tampa, FL

    darr Open Minded

    Hopefully this answers the asbestos quetion.

    I have looked over the most recent MSDS sheets that I could get from the manufacturers of the various components and there are none of the government required warnings for an asbestos containing product, therefore I have to say that the material no longer contains asbestos related products.

    Not because the formulation changed, but because it was determined by an outside agency that the material did not belong on the asbestos containing materials list and was removed from the list.

    In fact the material in question is currently used in asbestos free brake pad linings and found on many vehicles.
     
  6. darr
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    Location: Tampa, FL

    darr Open Minded

    I find it curious that all the naysayers have zero experience with the material, with the possible exception of Mike, who I am still waiting to hear back from confirming that the material in question is in fact the same, as well as information on the Australian distributor he dealt with.

    As I stated in a PM to another poster, if in fact it turns out to be Fer-A-Lite we will want to get much more information to try to determine if it was a material failure, an application failure, or failure as a result of prior unrepaired damage.

    As I stated previously, we have no information on any type of major failure and certainly not a failure similar to what he described, and I have talked to dozens of folks that have experience with Fer-A-Lite hulls a well as inspected several personally.

    I wonder how many stern tube failures have been reported in FRP, steel, Aluminum, ferro-cement and wooden hulls over the years, or is this the only failure of this type in history, therefore attributed to Fer-A-Lite?

    However, since I have numerous positive recommendations from those folks that in fact do have first hand as well as long term experience with it, I am left in a quandry.

    So...

    I will provide free of charge, except for true cost of shipping, 1 bag of the mix for experimentation.

    You must be a professional currently employed in the oceangoing recreataional or commercial vessel construction field, either as a materials engineer, builder or designer.

    I have 10 bags available, when they are gone the offer ends.

    You will need to source locally, polyester boat resin as you will need 1 gallon plus catalyst to go with the 1 bag of mix.

    Make sure it is polyester boatyard resin, not from one of the big box stores, Home Depot sells a polyester resin with a picture of a boat on it, it is not the same as boatyard resin, too quick of a gel time.

    Shipping will be actual freight, no handling charges.

    Since I am not making anything on this, I hope it is not seen as a sales pitch.

    If you want to badmouth it and punch holes in it, you need to try it first.

    Otherwise your opinions don't matter.

    If you are interested PM me.
     
  7. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Well, lets try to get that straight,

    by so far there are no naysayers here. The material might have some merits or not. I personally doubt that, but as I made clear that has to do with the proven imperfections of polyester in general and nothing with your material mix.

    The method to use your stuff is according to your statement the same one would use to build in Ferro Cement. Hence not a method (including your product) for a serious boatbuilder!
    Don´t tell us please that there have been FC boats built by boatyards. Yes, some could with a portion of goodwill be called boatyards, but then that was either a one shot business, and never again, or it was a act of desperation.

    The method in itself does not fit in a well organized production line.

    More important is the value one could achieve per invested capital and manhours. Thats valid for the pro and amateur alike.

    A boat built to proven and well known (by customers) methods has about 13% - 18% of its cost in the hull and superstructure. It is therefore not clever to cut corners in that sector to save pennies when on the other hand the sales or resales value of the craft is substantially reduced.

    Now let us imagine I build the 25 meter Passagemaker out of wood, wood epoxy, steel, steel/Al or alu. Thats all within some 200.000 US$ difference in the end, not more. (depending on builders skills with the material)

    The Market value of the vessel will be, lets say, 4mio $. (just a figure)
    In some countries the wooden one will be valued highest by the average customer, in others the Al. boat will be estimated to present a higher value. Outside of the US the wood epoxy craft will be seen as the highest, in most cases.
    But always the asking price of 4mio is conform with market acceptance.

    Now we offer the same craft, built to the same high standards in Ferro Cement. Everything completely equal, the accepted market value will drop below 1mio!
    That are the cruel facts of boatbuilding life

    Given the fact, that your material is far better than FC, we would have to convince a prospective buyer that this is true. As a result we might be able to sell him such boat. But still at the FC price.
    The effort to convince any prospective buyer of such boat that this method is superior to the mentioned ones, is just plain impossible. (and would cost a fortune on top of that)

    No matter how many panels your maul destroys and no matter how powerful your sales personal, this is seen as a knockoff of the FC method and valued accordingly. And that is not wrong btw.

    So, how stupid must I be, to even think about a method which consumes more time in the building process and produces a inferior (in value) boat?

    No, thanks!

    There may be inexperienced amateurs with the never ending fear to get drown at sea, looking for the ultimate in strength, which are to convince. Professionals are not.
    And that said, the proof of strength is just assumed by so far, the maul test is not the way.

    I see your offer as a honest and serious attempt to convince sceptic members here, but the given facts, make it not attractive for me to give it a try, thanks. So, this one sack is not wasted at least.

    Regards
    Richard
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 9, 2010
  8. darr
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    Location: Tampa, FL

    darr Open Minded

    Apex1, why don't you just ignore the thread until Dec 22, 2012.

    Then according to some the world will have turned upside down and as you stated your opinion might change.

    This is not the only thread, and as well not the only forum that the material has and is being discussed in.

    You have made your opinion very clear, save your breath, err.. fingers.

    I wonder if it was like this when everyone was convinced the world was flat?
     
  9. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Darr,

    you might have noticed that I am not a believer. I want hard data and don´t search the proof in the pudding.

    I am well aware that I am disturbing your sales promotion here, but that is my right.

    Your attempts in the past have obviously not found the one who makes all the disadvatages of your method as clear as it had to be made!

    Well, that changed today.

    Regards
    Richard
     
  10. dskira

    dskira Previous Member

    This is a very good post, should be read very seriously, very good and professional information.
    And I learn something ;)

    Daniel
     
  11. darr
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    Location: Tampa, FL

    darr Open Minded

    Well you have accused me of being a politician and a salesman.

    I am neither.

    I am someone who has had over 37 years of experience in various high end technology fields.

    I cut my teeth in nuclear and electronic engineering, my education was provided by the US Navy nuclear power program.

    My specialty is radio frequency voice, data and scada communications. I understand technical issues far better than you appear to believe.

    I was involved in the first mobile data project over a commercial 800 MHz trunking system, this is published in Communications magazine. I had to fight an uphill battle on this as well, no one thought I could do it.

    I was manager of RF operations for PowerFone/NEXTEL when it was building out the Midwest.

    I have been involved in alterative energy projects both as a designer as well as operations, this was back in the early 80's before it was cool to be in the field.

    I designed and built solar power emergency phones that were deployed on some of the smaller islands off the New England coast in the mid 80's

    I was credited with redesigning production methods for agricultural tractor assemblies that used less material, built a stronger product and took less labor to produce. I did the same thing for a water source heatpump manufacturer.

    I know what it takes to understand different materials and processes, I also have learned to keep my mouth shut until I have a true understanding of a product or process.

    I also realize that I don't know everything and my biggest lesson was learning how to keep an open mind.

    Perhaps this will help.

    I will never retire based on production of Fer-A-Lite and or Wire-Plank. There is currently minimal profit margin, and this has gone on for over 6 years. This explains the weak websites as well as our struggle to refresh our hard data.

    I pointed you directly to the existing hard data, you must have ignored it.

    Even if I was the slickest salesman in the world I would have to get an order for enough material to build a thousand boats and I might clear $50 per hull.

    Technically adept, yes
    Hard worker, yes
    Politician, no
    Salesman, no
    Savvy in business, I think the statement above about profit answers that, no.

    So where is the slick sales pitch you and PAR have accused me of. More importantly where is the motive for the slick sales pitch, it certainly would not be monetary.

    No where in any of these threads or forums have I ever solicited the sale of the material, other than a couple of threads announcing its availability after being absent from the market for two decades. Even in those there were no sales pitches.

    I have given away for test, experimentation and evaluation almost as much of the material as we have sold.
     
  12. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Impressive CV

    Let me skimp on posting mine.

    There is one point I do not grasp.
    According to your wide range of experiences one should assume you are able to run a proper business.
    So, why don´t you leave this one? It seems not very popular, and does not produce a sufficient income. In fact it seems to be a sort of occupational therapy.

    Richard
    boatbuilder and criticaster
     
  13. darr
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    Location: Tampa, FL

    darr Open Minded

    I do own and run a very successful business. We provide technology equipment and services to commercial and not for profit entities. We specialize in call centers, data centers, remote office connectivity as well as data acquisition and transmission.

    We obviously do somehing right as most of our clients have been with us for years, with over half of them being with us since we opened in 2001.

    I take my stress out in the boat shop, its amazing how much stress can be lost while mindlessly sanding, or cutting up big pieces of wood into smaller pieces that I then glue into bigger pieces and then sand down smaller.

    I have a choice, I can spend more time on the job that pays extremely well, while I wait for the economy to come back and get the boat business back on its feet, or I can spend all my time ramping up the boat business and starve.

    If it was not for the technology side of the company, I would be faced with having to close the boat company.

    I have been pushing technology in one form or another for over 37 years and frankly I am tired of riding that tiger. We were poised to sell the technology company so I could enter a working retirement operating a small boat yard, even had a downpayment on one in Honduras, the events that started in 2007 put the brakes on that.

    While it is obvious that I will never retire off of the manufacturing of the materials, the boat business will pick back up on the maintenance and upgrade side when the economy comes back around in the next few years.

    In the meantime, I keep my eyes open for the right yard for sale in the right location. Prior to the downturn and the loss of one of our flagships we were looking at a strong marine division to the parent company. I have a son that can do wonders with wood or steel in any venue. I have a knack for finding solutions that most folks don't think of. I have access to a number of seasoned professionals with yard experience.

    Why do I keep doing it, it is probably the result of my heredity, I am descended from stubborn germans, cheap scotsman, unruly irish and dutch quakers.
     
  14. darr
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    Location: Tampa, FL

    darr Open Minded


    Aw come on I showed you part of mine, where's yours.

    You have still not enligtened me on your material of choice.
     

  15. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    Oh, you should not focus on your thread exclusively, I replied on your question where you asked.

    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/bo...-ii-building-material-34265-6.html#post395089

    No, my vita is not for the world wide web. My life is a private one and will remain so. Though there are a few around here knowing me and / or about me and thats enough, they are proven values.

    Richard
     
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