Discussion in 'Materials' started by darr, Sep 3, 2010.

  1. mydauphin
    Joined: Apr 2007
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    Location: Florida

    mydauphin Senior Member

    Whats the saying, "If it is to good to be true, it probably isn't." Piece of advice for Fer-a-lite guy. Instead of trying to convince people to buy a substandard boat building product, he should look at application that can use the properties of fer-a-lit better. For example, artificial reefs, floating docks, benches, patio furniture. Give me that product and I will make a million dollars, just not for boat...
  2. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    I think a good salesman needs to believe in his stock. I've been in sales and found out how to be successful. I've also been fortunate enough to have known and been in business with some world class sales people. Besides belief, the good ones also had at least two other things going for them. First was they knew their product almost as well as the engineers or industry experts. Certainly enough to make detailed comparisons, especially against the direct competition. And second if they encountered a question they couldn't answer, they would complement you on such a good question and challenge you to a bet, that they would not only find out quickly what the answer was, but also treat you as the special prospective client, that had the balls to ask.

    Naturally, this last technique is right out of Dale Carnegie's book and an old, but very effective method to keep a prospect "engaged" while you look for the place you lost your balls. I say this because anyone that's been in sales and been stumped by a prospect's question, knows the kick in the balls feeling you get, when you have a bird, fluttering in your hand, but you can't close your fingers because of a lack of information. You blame yourself for not being prepared and now you're "tap dancing" your butt off, promising a substantial price cut or whatever, just to hang onto the prospect. Then again, maybe I'm too picky.
  3. darr
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    Likes: 2, Points: 0, Legacy Rep: -21
    Location: Tampa, FL

    darr Open Minded

    The only mis statement made was in regards to the steel content, which I admit I made an incorrect statement.

    WirePlank is designed for 14% steel content, in a heavy layup it is a 28% steel content. Where I made the confusing statement is in the fact that the portion of the shell thickness (that part that contains the armature, should be no less than 50% and usually is in excess of that amount).

    Say what you want, have your fun. The fact is more of the boats made with the material are still sailing, than not.

    And now there are quite a few people who have read this thread and have make the judgement for themselves as to the professionalism of this site and its senior members.

    Also I can assure you that the only name I have ever posted under on this thread is my own.

    I also find it quite odd that one of the senior members suggested that if I advertised on the site, there would be a better welcome and that Jeff could use the money.

    That is exacly why I will not advertise on a site, or pay for testimonials.

    You can get anyone to say anything for the right amount of money.

    And of course the proof is in the thread and the contents of an email I am privy too, if you don't advertise on the site, you will get attacked.

    I wonder how Jeff's current advertisers would feel about this thread and you alls behavior, in relation to the assassination attempt that has been on this thread?

    As a business owner, I think I will pose the question to them.
  4. Jeff
    Joined: Jun 2001
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    Location: Great Lakes

    Jeff Moderator

    I just want to clarify that no one representing this site in any formal capacity said anything of this nature via email or any other means to you. I am sorry that other forum members didn't respond to you as you wanted to be treated. I believe the difference between putting an advertisement out (where you're not around to discuss but simply float it out to try and hook the interested parties) and starting a discussion is that in the discussion you will hear about it if people aren't convinced or sold on an idea (yet) or if they outright dislike it; for an ad, these people simply won't contact you. For what it's worth, when asked to investigate I looked at the other pro-fer-a-lite new forum users, and I saw no evidence of any dishonesty such as overlaps or anonymous proxy posting and such, so with no evidence that statement was probably overly harsh and uncalled for.

    I admit that while we have a few more free-thinking members, the majority of professionals tend to be cautious and want to see hard data for any new products that are not known or that go against accepted methods and materials; when a new product is being sold or promoted that is an unknown, many can be skeptical and harsh, especially if there isn't hard data provided to back up the claims.

    So I am sorry that you didn't have a pleasant time drawing attention to fer-a-lite here. But you were certainly not attacked because you didn't advertise. I believe the people who you feel are against you are simply not sold on fer-a-lite and, if it's to be discussed or promoted, want hard data to consider being convinced otherwise.
  5. darr
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    Location: Tampa, FL

    darr Open Minded


    I responded in a PM so you can handle any housekeeping issues privately.
  6. MikeJohns
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    Location: Australia

    MikeJohns Senior Member

    Except for 70% which may have even all sunk, you just don't know.

    In fact you pull numbers out without understanding them and then make up what amount to stupid arguments. Like 1 inch thick wire plank contains 50% steel by volume. So therefore it's stronger than just about anything conceivable.......... Great argument and as the great technical wiz and material adviser you didn't think for one second it was as stupid argument until you were told so. Now you'd like us to believe it's maybe 28% by volume? :rolleyes:
    14 % to 28%.... That would apparently be by weight not by volume. A lot of what you post is confusing to yourself and it leads you into a belief based argument where you are simply wrong.

    You have claimed an exemplary engineering education but you can't even get fundamentally basic material data correct. In short you apparently have absolutely no idea.

    I asked you before where Tugboat got his misinformation, it's unfortunately directly from you posting grossly distorted 'facts'.

    Facts speak for themselves and you are simply making up or confusing most of your facts. Then rather than learn and move on and get some help you start blustering.

    I quoted you 5 posts back with another misstatement by the way.

    Jeff has nothing whatsoever to do with the way you are treated here. If you want respect you'll win it by working with us rather than trying to re-create reality. Perhaps you'd like to start again with some realistic and sensible statements. Then you'll find yourself treated quite well.
  7. Jeff
    Joined: Jun 2001
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    Location: Great Lakes

    Jeff Moderator

    I will reply to your PM here -- specifically, the email which you forwarded to me. This is my read, but I believe his objection was not that you didn't advertise on this site, but that your posts in the discussion forum made claims which he saw as not substantiated, and thus he saw your posts as attempting to "sell" or advertise without facts or without paying, to take advantage of the forum rather than inviting unbiased discussion. Others have come and tried to abuse the forum over the years to promote (promote only, without facts or reasonable discussion) rather than discuss, and so I'm sorry if the bad apples have resulted in a curt reaction and raised the expectation for any genuine new product introduction now.

    Years ago, when the Internet wasn't full of spamvertising and so much other disingenuous hard in-your-face promotion, your post would have gone over fine probably - in the early years people would have said, "interesting, I'll keep an eye out and look forward to you supplying more data" or it would have sat idle until a backyard builder here with time took you up on the offer to test it for free which seemed a fair offer.

    Now, people are more saturated by such constant promotion and more demanding of claims made on the net, so when people come with the intention of promoting something, professionals want data that confirms it has the advantages that are claimed. If real data isn't provided, many have a harsh reaction against what they feel is an advertising-based post that has taken their time.

    Sometimes professionals can be harsh in their critique or outright opinion, but they are giving their time freely to read and respond to the thread. I am sorry for any rudeness; some members don't have the politeness of a school teacher, but if proven wrong, they will apologize and if given data to satisfy them, they will be the first to pass on the information to others who ask.

    Also I note in the email you forwarded that he did spend his own time to make points and give background which I believe he hoped would be constructive.
  8. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Your first post in 2004 Darr. Note though this thread has been viewed nearly 1,600 times, no one took the offer to use their boat as your Guinea pig, let alone offer a response to the "enticement".

    Just about a mouth later you launched this;
    Ta Da, and your off, with two replies! Well okay, it took 4 years before the replies to your "announcement" post. Unfortunately, you were experiencing some server issues. Bad timing I guess, it appears there were no replies after the server came back up. Hummmmmm . . . it appears your site hasn't received any attention since long before the server problems, but hey . . .

    Sure enough about a month later a new post, this time with a twist, as a repair technique on your boat;
    A few replies including one from me, addressing your interest in "something other then luan" as a repair material. You didn't respond to any of the advise, suggestions or comments.

    Your next post was to enter a discussion with a promo, though you said it wasn't, for your product. This has been a continuing theme, starting or joining threads with the purpose of "non-announcing" you product or "non-reintroducing" your product or suggesting that your product can serve in a particular application.

    There's nothing wrong with this, except that most recognize it for what it is and after a while have come to dislike it. You just don't understand why. The physical properties portion of the debates, etc. are irrelevant and haven't been discussed thus far (in this post), though these also have "issues" to most here. This particular aspect of the conversation, is a preparation and presentation problem, which we have no control over.

  9. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    Hey Darr, its spring time - im getting ready to build, waited all winter and boy was it long...i built a steel barge and sold it, but my back is finished- can no longer work in steel sadly. I dislike wood it doesnt last and if it does it is because it is as expensive as fiberglass or steel. So fer-a-lite makes sense to me--no one here will change my mind on that...anway:
    still wish to build a hull using your product...anyway, I have the sample you sent me and I will be using it for a model and a test slab( just to see how to get it right when working with it)...send me a private email...
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