Fer-A-Lite

Discussion in 'Materials' started by darr, Sep 3, 2010.

  1. MikeJohns
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    MikeJohns Senior Member


    Understand that no-one is out to lynch Darr. He's driven the debate with his responses and unsubstantiated claims and his almost total lack of technical knowledge. By now he should have looked at a basic book on mechanics, and so perhaps should you.

    A lot of engineering is not as intuitive as you'd think. The world over there are ignorant people who won't accept advice because they feel intuitively that they are right. Yet they are wrong. I've met them often. From your own posts you could do with some help understanding a few basic principles which you have trouble with.

    Boat building isn't a gamble, You can improve your odds to a certainty with knowledge.

    For your footnote there are times when the final stage of your 3 stages is embarrassed abandonment. You've overlooked that possibility.

    But you've talked yourself into FAL or FAIL if the crippling labor becomes too much of a burden. But what I don't understand is that you wanted a boat that was strong and now, shown that it's weak you talk about intuition ! That doesn't seem very logical and it's no basis for a sensible decision.
     
  2. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    MIke -logic is like spock on star trek- you have emotions(dr mcoy) then you have logic (spock) both are at odds.none of them are in command but then you have the mix of both..the balance--this is the real captain of life- use input from both and you supercharge problem solving! - solve problems using the two- niether one to the extreme but balanced--this is my way..it has worked for me-and for our ancestors etc...believe me i look at the figures too-- its not that i cant understand them --i just prefer using the KISS principle. yes exactly- boatbuilding is a gamble. even with numbers and calcs etc there are no guarantees
    I doubt that the third stage leads to embarrasment--but if so--its mine...
    we are from different schools of thought on these matters....it doesnt mean we cannot just agree to disagree???
     
  3. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    It seems you still have not got, that the material is far away from being new! It is around since 40 years now.

    Thanks for wishing us luck, but boatbuilding has nothing to do with luck! It is experience, knowledge and engineering what makes it successful, not luck.

    The methods in question must not be executed and sailed by ourselves to call them failures, knowledge and experience is sufficient.
    In the 60ies I have seen a homebuild project using pvc pipe and polyester for the hull and deck. I never tried that myself, but later in life I did know why that was a mad idea. So, when the next one comes up with a similar approach, I can tell him, in all seriousness, why that is not a good method. What I donĀ“t know though, is, did that very project boat survive, or not? Assumed it was completed, and still is afloat, does that make such method a proven alternative we could recommend?

    That we butcher everyone who comes up here with nothing but lies and sales drivel, is the very nature of this platform. Too many professionals are contributing here, with too many centuries of experience accumulated, to survive the trap these marketing "specialists" provide for themselves.


    As Landlubber said, go for it and pay your fine, but be fine.
     
  4. peter radclyffe
    Joined: Mar 2009
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    Location: europe

    peter radclyffe Senior Member

    you get emotional about concrete ? beam us up to the darrship enterprise, now i understand

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vPWE2Ebz48

    so your textbooks are star trek
    Zizzily | 27 aprile 2009
    Star Trekkin' across the universe,
    On the Starship Enterprise under Captain Kirk.
    Star Trekkin' across the universe,
    Boldly going forward 'cuz we can't find reverse.

    Lt. Uhura, report.
    There's Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, starboard bow,
    there's Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, Jim.

    Analysis, Mr. Spock
    It's life Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, not as we know it;
    it's life Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, Captain.

    There's Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, starboard bow,
    there's Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, Jim.

    Star Trekkin' across the universe,
    On the Starship Enterprise under Captain Kirk.
    Star Trekkin' across the universe,
    Boldly going forward, still can't find reverse.

    Medical update, Dr. McCoy.
    It's worse than that he's dead Jim, dead Jim, dead Jim;
    it's worse than that he's dead Jim, dead Jim, dead.

    It's life Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, not as we know it;
    it's life Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, Captain.

    There's Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, starboard bow,
    there's Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, Jim.

    Starship Captain, James T. Kirk:
    Ah! We come in peace, shoot to kill, shoot to kill, shoot to kill;
    we come in peace, shoot to kill, shoot to kill, men.

    It's worse than that he's dead Jim, dead Jim, dead Jim;
    it's worse than that he's dead Jim, dead Jim, dead.

    Well, It's life Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, not as we know it;
    it's life Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, Captain.

    There's Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, starboard bow,
    there's Klingons on the starboard bow, scrape 'em off, Jim.

    Star Trekkin' across the universe,
    On the Starship Enterprise under Captain Kirk.
    Star Trekkin' across the universe,
    Boldly going forward, and things are getting worse!

    Engine Room, Mr. Scott:
    Ye canna change the laws of physics, laws of physics, laws of physics;
    ye canna change the laws of physics, laws of physics, Jim.

    Ah! We come in peace, shoot to kill, shoot to kill, shoot to kill;
    we come in peace, shoot to kill; Scotty beam me up!

    It's worse than that he's dead Jim, dead Jim, dead Jim;
    it's worse than that, he's dead Jim, dead Jim, dead.

    Well, it's life, Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, not as we know it;
    it's life, Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, Captain.

    There's Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow, starboard bow;
    there's Klingons on the starboard bow, starboard bow ahhhhh!

    Ye canna change the script Jim.
    Och, #!& Jimmy.

    It's worse than that it's physics, Jim.

    Bridge to engine room, warp factor 9.

    Och, if I give it any more she'll blow, Cap'n!

    Star Trekkin' across the universe,
    On the Starship Enterprise under Captain Kirk.
    Star Trekkin' across the universe,
    Boldly going forward, 'cuz we can't find reverse.

    Star Trekkin' across the universe,
    On the Starship Enterprise under Captain Kirk.
    Star Trekkin' across the universe,
    Boldly going forward, still can't find reverse.

    Categoria:
    Umorismo

    Tag:
    Kirk Uhura Spock McCoy Scotty Klingons red shirts Star Trek Star Trekkin' The Firm Stone Trek


    Caricamento in corso...
    Mi piace
     
  5. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    Im convinced Rodenberry got his inspiration from a vessel called" the flying enterprise" of 1950's era. the captain- his name was Kurt Carleson-- i little bit of a stretch and you get captain Kirk(Kurt)...the saga is quite well known with this vessel-
    ]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Enterprise
     
  6. Landlubber
    Joined: Jun 2007
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    Landlubber Senior Member

    ...now I understand it all......

    Tugboat is a Trekky......errrr, dats all folks.
     
  7. Tanton
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Newport RI

    Tanton Senior Member

    Any one knows about the whereabouts of the 54' originally named Adelaide- E ?
    Last I heard she was in the Fidji Islands. This was years ago. Build in Portsmouth RI in1979.
     
  8. pdwiley
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    Location: Hobart

    pdwiley Senior Member

    I've actually got 3 degrees, the first one was in science and as part of it I took a course in the history & philosophy of science. None of those degrees are relevant to engineering except insofar as they influence how I think. I do not trust intuition when it comes to engineering because it does not work.

    Build your boat and be happy doing it. You're going to build a more expensive, slower boat than you think and you're going to write the entire build cost off as its resale will be very low, but if that's what you want to do, ok.

    The only thing that will get me to change my mind about FAL is engineering data. Shown that, I'll re-examine my comments re strength and fitness for purpose.

    None of that, even if provided, is going to change my mind about FAL or FC being the most time consuming and weakest way to build a boat hull because there is 30+ years of practical, in the field evidence to show that this is so.

    I've a few comments re engineering bits I'll make on your other thread when I get a bit of time.

    PDW
     
  9. mydauphin
    Joined: Apr 2007
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    Location: Florida

    mydauphin Senior Member

    Just because you can build something doesn't mean you should or that it is the best.

    I can build a boat out of cardboard, coat it with fiberglass resin, then float it. Then I claim it as good as a steel boat. It is lighter, faster to build, easier to repair and stronger pound for pound than aluminum. Oh, it is also more flexible... but is it really better.

    People have biases for a reason, many times their biases are based on experience and are correct. Many people here, myself included, have decades of boat building experience. We have seen promises come and go. People come and go, but basic engineering and design procedure always work. I have built many a boat just for fun, and was pleasantly surprise that it performed well. But I have never played so much with the building materials in a larger boat, the forces too great, the danger too great. So why take the risk on a unproven, unengineered method of construction. The cost of the hull is minimal overall anyway.

    So don't expect any halfway knowledgeable person to embrace something with little benefit and much risk.
     
  10. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    (laugh) not really...but its fun to watch
     
  11. SportyDog
    Joined: Oct 2010
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    Location: Tampa Bay

    SportyDog Junior Member

    So, no more discussion on building materials, what a shame, how about completed projects, I remember many started, mostly in California. a lot of great designs. Oh well!
     
  12. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Sporty, there never was a discussion about building materials on this thread. It was a thread started by a guy who owns the rights to Fer-a-Lite and by his own admission hasn't the money for regular advertising or even web site upkeep, so he "expounds" on the virtues of his company's offerings, with what appears to be an innocent enough question and answer session. When actually faced with real questions about the product and it's components, he falls down on the details, hasn't any data to back up his assertions and no testing that can be verified. His replies at those typically of a salesman, but not one of a technician. There's nothing wrong with this, but if you're selling a product, that is having an acceptance problem, then you need to be armed with the data, testing results and understanding of the physical attributes, of the product or you're destined to face stiff resistance, which he has here.
     
  13. MikeJohns
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    It turns out all the amazing material claims really were so much hot air.

    Mr Palmer was claiming equal strength and stiffness to aluminium for the filler material alone. Then it was supposed to get even stronger from the steel included in the layup.

    Actual tests of the Ferralight panels with steel in the layup actually were pretty poor. They were much the same strength as standard ferro cement. The final steel ferralight composite panel was around 1/3 the strength and stiffness of alloy.

    It's misleading marketing probably based more of total ignorance of his product than willful misrepresentation. Although Mr Palmer claims a very high level of training he's really totally unqualified in this field of materials and showed an abysmal lack of both knowledge and understanding of their application.
     
  14. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    Location: Eustis, FL

    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Thanks Mike, say how many of the Fer-a-lite fans, on this and other threads are actually Darr, would you imagine?
     

  15. MikeJohns
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    Location: Australia

    MikeJohns Senior Member

    I don't know Paul, I think Darr just believed a little too much in his own sales pitch.
     
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