Fer-A-Lite

Discussion in 'Materials' started by darr, Sep 3, 2010.

  1. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    ive read both sides of the debate enough to my satisfaction...ive read through every post on here..., satisfied the material does what it needs to do to be viable...it personal choice--
     
  2. Landlubber
    Joined: Jun 2007
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    Landlubber Senior Member

    ...tugboat....go for it mate, build your boat, and live in peace......

    ...we have all only offered what we believe to be advice to you, as i said before,.....you can lead a horse to water, you cannot make it drink.......

    ...what you do not understand , is the pain that we suffer when we see a new build done either from a bad material, or a bad design, the results are always bad.....

    ..if you have decided that the fer a lite is for you, so be it........RIP.
     
  3. pdwiley
    Joined: Jun 2008
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    Location: Hobart

    pdwiley Senior Member

    If Darr would just provide some basic engineering data instead of doing everything he can to avoid providing the data, you'd see people behave differently. But he doesn't and has said that he won't, even on simple little basic tests as I've outlined. All the while claiming that this is a suitable material for boat building.

    I wouldn't accept that sort of claim from anyone about any other material so why should I accept it from Darr? If he doesn't like people rubbishing his product then he can either drop the discussion at which point it'll die, or provide some engineering data. I don't care which frankly. Darr has gotten to the point of attempting to threaten us with legal action because he doesn't like our interpretations of the product capabilities (see comments re us having professional indemnity insurance, it can't mean anything else) rather than provide engineering data. That tells me a lot right there.

    There's a difference between an open mind and a vacuous one. Facts will get me to change my opinion, or form one. The only real facts in this entire discussion I can ascertain are:

    That there seems to be 30 vessels out of 100 or so built with FAL that can be located and are still afloat. Mike Johns knows of one bad one so the failure statistic ranges from 1 in 100 (assuming all the others are fine) to 71 in 100 (assuming all the others are defunct). In the absence of more information no conclusions can be drawn.

    That FAL results in a lighter hull than a FC hull if built with the same armature.

    That FAL is more expensive than using FC in a hull construction.

    That FAL allows cold joints and therefore easier working by a home builder than FC.

    What else can definitively be said?

    You can't say ANYTHING about the material properties because it hasn't been tested.

    You can't say ANYTHING about an individual hull other than it still floats because you don't know what the armature inside it is built of, or like, unless you've photos (GITANA may be an exception as there appears to be a photo of it in armature). My point is, an FC hull with the same armature may well be stronger than the FAL one as the armature is the key. You simply do not know what's in there unless you X-ray the hull.

    I've asked Darr how many boats he's built by material type and how many he's personally supervised being built by material type. We'll see what the answer is. Owning one counts for nothing, I own a 1942 Monarch lathe but I damn sure couldn't build one.

    Incidentally I have the displacement figures and hull sizes for both TAMARACK & DOXY so if Darr posts the amount of FAL sold to Shaeffers to build GITANA we'd have at least 1 datum point as to the amount needed for a known hull. Given the LOD of GITANA I can tell which design it is. From there we could arrive at a current-day price.

    Tug, I am interested in FACTS. That's all. Give me facts and I can form an opinion based on them. Deny me facts and I'll form an opinion based on observed behavior instead. Darr has chosen option 2.

    PDW
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2010
  4. SportyDog
    Joined: Oct 2010
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    Location: Tampa Bay

    SportyDog Junior Member

    To tugboat, your last post gave me pause to send you this note. When considering the steel rods you may use in creating your hull, use cold roll steel NOT REBAR, If you can get WirePlnk use that, the benifits are greater than other mesh. If you want more detail help just send a note. Regards
     
  5. MikeJohns
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    Location: Australia

    MikeJohns Senior Member

    So Tugboat on other threads you said this material had all sorts of wonderful properties. All of them were wrong.




    Particularly we've seen comments like stronger than Aluminium Alloy, As strong as steel. Cheaper than a steel build. Better puncture resistance than steel. A steel hull is 3 times the cost of Ferralight.

    So Darr provided you with the material which you then miss-interpreted yourself?

    While you were talking yourself into this, misquoting material properties, Darr sat quietly on those threads and never corrected you. And those statements are quite wrong which even he knew.

    Some folks might suggest that he maybe had a moral obligation to possibly correct your misunderstanding of his product. ( is that couched in gentle enough terms;))
     
  6. MikeJohns
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    Absolutely. There's insufficient info to properly design a boat with this material; essential basic data is just absent. Instead we have to believe that it's ok.....trust me.

    It's clear Darr is a pretender when it comes to technical knowledge. The marketing smells a bit questionable to me. It's basically a second hand sales pitch inherited along with the product.

    Not very edifying.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2010
  7. darr
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    Location: Tampa, FL

    darr Open Minded

    Actually I believe I said the strength of steel without the maintenance.

    I don't think I ever said stronger than aluminum, I think I said it had the bending moment of aluminum, and I was corrected on that as it should be the composite has the bending moment of aluminum

    Nor did I ever say a steel hull was 3 times as expensive as FAL

    And I do have a moral obligation to potential customers, I believe on more than one occasion I posted so that we were all on the same sheet of music anytime I thought there was a misconception on anyones part.

    I obviously had nothing to hide so I posted the questions to tugboat, publicly on this very popular thread. He replied and yet it still goes on.
     
  8. MikeJohns
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    Not you, Tugboat. but it's only as strong as the steel in the layup so that's a pretty misleading term to say "as strong as steel".
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2010
  9. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    Mike--- the problem i have is how can you know more than Darr if he hasnt provided you guys with the data..in that sense everyone then knows niether better or worse than Darr???
     
  10. MikeJohns
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    Location: Australia

    MikeJohns Senior Member

    But he did provide enough for a comparison. One lab test and the data in the blurb was enough to see that the claims you (and Darr) were posting were a nonsense.

    Those at least are the facts. And it's not even stronger than standard FC in fact it's weaker in some respects when you look at the hull girder.
     
  11. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    Mike I live in Sudbury ontario Can.- the great lakes area- call me if you like ill pm you my number, Darr is in florida...i saw this kind of paranoia on Wellmers posts...

    c'mon guys---:?: were building and designing boats here..
     
  12. darr
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    Location: Tampa, FL

    darr Open Minded

    Ah builds,

    I have been involved in 6 over the years, never as a supervisor always a grunt.

    2 F/C, 3 FRP and 1 in wood.

    Did not work on any until completion, but estimate 3500 to 4000 hours between all of them. I was part of a building cooperative, I wound up moving out of the county before my turn came up.

    However on the repair side, many more hours on F/C than anything else.
     
  13. MikeJohns
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    Rhetorical device not paranoia. Darr didn't read my post properly and replied on my questions to you.

    As for designing boats.............Absolutely. And you design boats from known material properties. That's the bit that seems to be being overlooked. You have been mislead on those properties, that should be clear to you by now.
     
  14. MikeJohns
    Joined: Aug 2004
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    So you understand that it's nowhere near the strength of steel now? And that you have been making misleading statements out of ignorance.

    As for the 'bending moment' comment you are really confused you need to stop right there and get some help, and sort out some basics. otherwise you will continue to mislead people who think you know what you are talking about.
     

  15. tugboat

    tugboat Previous Member

    Darr-- its nothing but an inquisition here--they dont want the product--just leave here...its a waste of time...good to you for trying...
    Mike and others-
    i have heard what you said--ill take it under advisement- anything in life thats new is a risk im willing to take that gamble and if i lose--then im better for doing it. Id rather make my own mistakes and fail, at least then I know and i did it my way rather than be a sheep in a herd following just because other says its so...ill repeat - I know a 100 year old healthy tree is stronger than I am: why?.. because its common sense...i dont need to do tests and structural analysis or youngs modulus to know that. you have your methods i have mine -i wish you the best of luck in your builds.
    pdw- you have a degree in science(was it?)with philosophy?
    did you study dialectics?...remember what come out of thesis(Darr) antithesis(you and others)? rememeber synthesis!?? some hegelian dialectics - but no matter it applies here...and i shouldn't have to explain those concepts to you for sure...Ill go look up that Colvin site...
    now why dont people just let the man be...i doubt he's trying to do anything but make a business run...let him just do it...i may be wrong but i think the guys been basted enough at this point by people who only know theoretical computations...and no direct experince per se building a boat in fer-alite- let alone sailing one or running one..(that ive read)live and let live for chrissakes...cut the man some slack...
     
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