Fastest Sailboat on the Planet!

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Jan 22, 2007.

  1. P Flados
    Joined: Oct 2010
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    P Flados Senior Member

    Wanting different rules is understandable. Getting all huffy, twisting facts etc. is not going to help get better rules.
     
  2. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    The Guinness book of world records has in the past recognized the 143 mph set by Buckstaff. While Buckstaff's mark is not currently published as a record by Guinness the time is still considered the fastest ever published of a wind only powered boat.

    the credibility issue lies solely with your prefered sitting committee's rather loose interpretation of the rules, The berm is a simple reality that you admitted earlier was modified to help the riders get down the course faster before the last event. You have also admitted that there is/was a chop killer being used at these events. So its kinda fishy that your now changing your story without providing any proof. placing the berm where it was in the first place was a blatant attempt to enhance speeds by modifying the topography, But now your suggesting its been modified again in another effort to enhance speeds, wow. Looks like cheating to a lot of folks, as does using a chop killer or any other external modifications to deviate from "comparable" conditions.

    fortunately there are other organizations which are dedicated to a fair and honest review of what the fastest outright speed sailing record times.

    John D Buckstaff set the world speed sailing record of 143 mph on lake Winnebago back in the 1930's and still holds the record today, although speeds of 150+ have unofficially been recorded by a reputable organization, the International Skeeter Association/IDNIYRA..

    [​IMG]

    This boat is the one to beet guys, rides on some really cold water and certainly looks like it meets all the rules and regulations. Its powered only by the wind and its a boat according to the inventor, the USCG. Looks like we have a clear winner folks

    I think he should rename it tho
    I was thinking Ludicrous

    cheers
    B

    ps
    the point is that once a particular sitting committee starts getting overly creative with the interpretations of there particular set of rules for whatever reason they seriously compromise there credibility. The simple reality is that its the "cold water" boats that are the outright fastest wind powered sailboats. Doesn't really mater how you slice it. 143mph is the time to beat. Simply because one interpretation of one set of rules by one organization of rather dubious credibility excludes the recognition of a phenomenal achievement which is ratified by at least one other world speed sailing organization and by the Guinness book of world records doesn't mean it didn't happen or that MR Buckstaff doesn't deserve his place in the record books.

    oh
    the present fastest timed run using a GPS unit and witnesses as specified by the race commission and also I might add as specified by Guinness is ~100 mph
     
  3. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    is it getting obvious that stretching the rules in one direction implies that they can and will eventually be stretched all out of proportion. If one sitting committee loosely interprets the rules to favor a given type of craft over other previously recognized craft then is it not just as easy to apply the same kinds of loose interpretation to a wide variety of vehicles. You may not agree with the logic but its perfectly sound.

    Ice boats are in fact boats and were invented by the coast guard
    they are actually running of a layer of water not ice
    the depth of the lake where the record time of 143 mph was set in within specified depth requirements
    and they use a sail with only the wind to propel them
    so if an argument can be made allowing the use of all the tricks and gizmo's as well as a purpose built ditch like whats at Ludicrous then there's an equally valid argument to be made to allow cold water yachts to fall under the same qualifications and enjoy the recognition as the fastest sail powered boats in the world

    143 mph is quite an achievement and deserves a mention in any claim to having the worlds fastest sail powered boat
     
  4. Cheesy
    Joined: Aug 2008
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    Cheesy Senior Member

    I wouldnt worry too much about Luderitz, as GPS technology gets better (allowing more useful sized units to be ratified) kites will be able to compete in any location they want whenever they want, this will lead to another jump in speed from the kites. Expect to see some significant development in the kites them selves as well.....
     
  5. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    and that would be fine
    if you go back in the thread you will find that I firmly supported the kites inclusion in the competition just as I firmly support the ice boats inclusion. If we are talking about outright sailing speed record then might as well include all players. As long as no one is cheating then let the races begin. It just seems pretty obvious that by allowing some teams to use extraneous influences that enhance speed someone or some group, sitting committee or not has betrayed the spirit of the competition.

    personally I don't see the kites being able to compete on open water but more power to em if they want to try. flat water, maybe, as long as that flat water is naturally occurring under similar conditions for all contenders.

    my whole point is that when you start bending the rules and allowing a wind enhancing berm as well as a chop killer your opening up a can of worms/interpretations that can be equally stretched in any desired direction by whoever happens to be seated on some obscure committee at the time.

    If ditches, chop killers and wind generating berms are allowed why not fans and wind tunnels, when does it stop, or why not skates that ride on cold water. Its a simple mater of interpretation isn't it? And what happens if someone demands recognition and takes whatever ruling body to court and that court finds that the ruling body failed to define its rules within the confines of legal definitions, for instance what is and isn't a boat.

    It does seem pretty poor sportsmanship on the part of the ditch people to be jumping up and down after having manipulated the rules in there favor and then laying claim to a tittle that obviously goes to the ice yacht guys at 143 mph. Outright fastest sail powered craft right. Unless you want to break it down into categories like ice boat, boat, board, then of course you could fairly say that so and so is the fastest sailboat and someone else is the fastest sailboard, as well as maybe give an honorable mention to the Guinness book of world records fastest wind powered vehicle with a time of 143mph which by any standard is a pretty remarkable feet, and kinda blows the doors off competition. There are and should be various classifications but as far as outright fastest sail powered vehicle, Sorry if some folks are surprised but the prize has to go to the ice boats
     
  6. ancient kayaker
    Joined: Aug 2006
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    I mentioned ice yachts as an example of a class of sailing boat that was excluded to highlight the can of worms that gets opened when rules are used to exclude some boats and include others. Everyone has a simple common-sense understanding of what constitutes a boat, and for me it's neither an ice yacht nor a board, but folk who scream loud enough can get other things included by arbitrary rules. That's what I was referring to by my "sauce for the goose" remark.

    I didn't mean it to highjack the thread, and I think we can all accept that different people have different ideas on the subject and move on.
     
  7. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    Here is the video of the record run:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iox_-1TAjE&feature=related

    Can you point out the "wind enhancing berm" in the video?

    Can you point to the "chop killer"?
     
  8. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    Are you suggesting that no berm or chop killer exists or has existed at the venue. If not then were they removed? why were they removed? what became of any timed runs occurring during the time they were installed? what is to be made of any timed runs made after the course was enhanced by there inclusion or maybe further enhanced by there removal. Was a survey made of the natural topography and has that topography been returned to its natural/comparable condition. Whats that fence I see in the middle of the run doing? Whats all that dirt and sand piled upwind of the course? At what point do you allow or disallow external speed enhancing modifications like these to naturally existing conditions and what constitutes natural conditions as apposed to manufactured conditions. Where is the line on manufactured conditions? Is it legal within the rules to build a wind tunnel? what about multiple wind tunnels, one for the rider and one for the kite? At some point one must admit that the spirit of the rules deliberately imply similar conditions for all contenders on every continent. It just doesn't seem fair to introduce entirely new parameters/interpretations to the game and then stack the race committee in favor of a paradigm unique to and favoring a particular type of vehicle. This is the real question, not if ice boats fall under the jurisdiction of one committee or another, that was just an example, ( and a good one Terry ) but if its within the spirit of the rules to introduce a new paradigm, unique to and favoring a particular type of vehicle, and if so, then why not include interpretations allowing the fastest of wind only powered craft of all, they also run on water, if albeit rather cold water?

    lets get back to figuring out who is the fastest sailboat
    Hydropter 70.1 mph
    whos the over all fastest sail powered craft
    J D Buckstaff 143 mph
    who's the fastest on a board, with a kite, in a ditch, using external modifications to the terrain and water to enhance speeds and assuming some rather generous interpretations of the rules by the present sitting committee, Rob D

    I also notice a repeated argument insinuating the infallibility of the race committee in there decision to allow kiters and there various external speed enhancing devices, yet not long ago, kite's weren't considered contenders. I am compelled to ask myself if these same people now insisting that the decision of the race committee is final were equally as vociferous in times past.

    playing Devils advocate has been kinda fun, but in all reality I think the Ludicrous ( pun intended ) nature of the race committee's bias decisions is glaringly apparent.
     
  9. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    I am not suggesting anything.

    I have read your posts about people cheating by building "wind enhancing berms" (whatever they might be) and "chop killers". So I looked at the video of the record run and did not see either.

    Have you been accusing someone of CHEATING by building some berm that supposedly enhanced the wind speed without ever seeing the video of the venue during the run?
     
  10. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    clearly you really need to read back through and educate yourself on the development of this site as a race venue before you go making wild assumptions about chop killers and berms. Then get back to me on the issue. Clearly there is/was a berm. Clearly there is/was a chop killer.

    then reread my last and consider the questions presented

     
  11. ancient kayaker
    Joined: Aug 2006
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    It's now several pages since I saw a post about l'Hydroptere. That was what the thread was about, wasn't it?
     
  12. Paul B

    Paul B Previous Member

    I don't need to do anything.

    You have been stating the record run was accomplished by using these supposed wind berms and chop killers. You have been told multiple times that you are incorrect in those statements. You persisted.

    Mr. Flados asked you to provide evidence of this. You ignored his request and simply persisted with your claim.

    I provided video evidence that took less than one minute to find in a search. Yet you still persist.

    I don't know why anyone would continue to have a discussion with you on this topic. I suggest you contact the relevant authority and make your case to them.
     
  13. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    and you actually believe that the one minute of research you have put into the issue is sufficient to categorically state that these devices are not/have never been employed at this site

    please

    if your going to enter into the conversation thats great and welcome but try and do a little catching up before you make any more wildly inaccurate statements

    simply presenting a now you see em now you don't argument fails completely to address the issues at hand


    Terry I believe my last #758 mentioned Hydropter as the worlds fastest sailboat, and yes I'd have to agree, the thread should be about this boats tremendous times. Maybe once we can get past the ridiculous argument of who is the outright fastest sail powered vehicle ( obviously J D Buckstaff at 143mph ) then hopefully we can return to get the thread back on track.

    cheers
    B
     
  14. Cheesy
    Joined: Aug 2008
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    Cheesy Senior Member

    The World Sailing Speed Record Council was established by the International Yacht Racing Union (now renamed the International Sailing Federation) in 1972. The object was to provide impartial results for increasing numbers of claims to high speed sailing craft (on water: never on ice nor land!).
     

  15. P Flados
    Joined: Oct 2010
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    P Flados Senior Member

    Boston -

    The berm was not constructed to help go faster, it was just left over dirt and it was removed prior to the world record. It does not matter that it existed for a few runs. Since it was removed prior to the record runs, it has no impact on anything worth discussing in this thread and it is obvious to anyone that is not being stubborn and argumentative. This has been pointed out to you by number of contributors, and no one has jumped in to support your position on this point. Just drop the berm.

    There was no external mechanical device used. Any and all adjustments they made to their venue (dig the ditch, block some wave action from a side channel or anything else) was simply them trying to make their location comparable to "natural shorelines" previously used (Walvis Bay, Weymouth, Sandy Point).

    Ice sailing is not sailing on liquid water. The weight of the boat is being supported by a solid surface (ice) with a thin film of liquid (water) acting as a lubricant. Remove the ice from underneath and the craft is no longer fast. In describing the actual function of an ice sailing craft it would be more appropriate to call it a sail sled than a sail boat. Ice sailing is functionally closer to dirt sailing than it is to sailing on water. That is why Richard Jenkin's ice & dirt craft look so much similar.

    The discussion of fast ice sailing is interesting and there is some controversy as to what is what. The speed you have quoted may be valid, but I do not think it was recorded using methods that would meet todays standards for a speed record used in any other setting. The speed sailing record that is probably the highest officially recognized is Richard Jenkin's 126.1 mph on land. Richard has also been going for a properly documented fast run on ice, but has not been able to find any surface flat enough for his craft yet. I hope he keeps at it until he gets some reasonable conditions. Then we should have a "record" that was set with appropriate measurements and documentation.

    You can compare sailing on a solid surface (ice or dirt) to sailing on water if you want to. I feel that all forms of speed sailing are notable and worth recognition. Sailing on a solid surface has obviously allowed those on dirt and ice to go faster than those on water. When Hydroptere grabbed the record, no one seriously challenged their "fastest boat" claim with video footage of a fast run on ice. Any reasonable person would have just laughed at the suggestion.
     
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