Fastest Sailboat on the Planet!

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Jan 22, 2007.

  1. Gary Baigent
    Joined: Jul 2005
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    To the sailing world's guru CT249 .... whispered in your shell like ear ....
    Trenchers are cheaters.
    And everyone knows it.
    The volume of your waffling rationalisation - is of such immensity - it would tip over an aircraft carrier.
     
  2. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    ya that was a pretty interesting stretch of interpretation I must agree. The simple reality is that using external mechanical devices to enhance a vehicles performance is forbidden under the rules. Also similar conditions are specifically mentioned, does that mean that a wind tunnel can be used? its wind and you could always put a ditch in the wind tunnel.

    also why don't the ice yachts get there due, they run on a microscopic film of water don't they

    its a boat
    its on water
    they kick the living snot out of the old record
    simply because they mention ice in the rules doesn't mean it cant be interpreted as dry ice/CO2 which is very different than H2O ice. If we are stretching the rules we might as well stretch them right ?

    chop killer
    wind diverting berm
    specialty course unable to accommodate all contenders on a fair and level playing field

    seems a lot like its a rigged game to me
     
  3. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    I'm not one of those claiming to be a guru, Gary. Like most of my posts, all I was musing about was the fact that there are different ways to look at things, rather than there simply being a right way and a wrong way.

    Therefore the kiters and trenchers may not be "cheats" - they simply hold a reasonable but different view.

    Surely the ones who reckon they're gurus are those who put themselves on such a pedestal that they feel that they can look down on others and call them "blatantly biased", "cheats" or "luddites" or use other terms that imply that the poster is smarter, more honest, better, or superior in some way.

    To put the argument in simple form - the traditional speedsailing arenas are not strictly "comparable" to conditions elsewhere in the world. Therefore either you have a wide definition of "comparable" (which could include trenches) or you would have to exclude records set in Sandy Point, Weymouth and other unusual natural places where conditions are not "comparable" to "any part of the world". If you ban trenches, you also give a significant advantage to those who can sail in places like Sandy Point and Weymouth, which effectively have natural trenches.

    I've never said the above argument is perfect, although IMHO it's certainly no worse than the opposing view. The point is that it is a reasonable opinion to hold and therefore those who hold it - and who follow the Council's line - should not be called "cheaters".


    BTW, Gary, what's the relevance of saying "everyone knows it"? Are you saying that if "everyone knows it" then they (the majority) must be right?
     
  4. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    To exclude ice yachts one can simply define a minimum depth of water for "real boats" and anything that operates on thinner water can have some face saving title such as sailing craft - as opposed to a sailing vessel.

    The problem is, the depth is arbitrary. Setting it just a little deeper would leave ditchers and the wet parking lot “sailing craft” operating in the same category as ice yachts and can’t you just hear them start to scream? Sauce for the goose is not sauce for the gander if the gander says it isn't ... and then we will need a category for icers and a category for ditchers and maybe another category for shallow water types like Sailrocket and an open category for big mothers like l'Hydroptere ...

    This is a Reductio ad absurdum argument of course, but that’s the kind of mess that technology creates from simple, innocent pleasures. It’s a precise parallel to the difference between rocket- or turbine-driven vs wheel-driven land speed attempts, and power boat speed attempts with- and without propellers.

    Some kinds of technology provide an advantage for some kinds of craft or vehicle that doesn't translate into other types of craft. If practically-oriented people feel those former types have limited functionality they are going to object. This is no more unreasonable than claiming speed is all that counts and usefulness is irrelevant. Proponents of each side of an argument will twist it to suit themselves.

    There was a time when the unlimited World speed record would have been held by a large sailing ship - horses could not have competed. Soon this split into water-born, ground and air-born. Then came jets, and rockerts, now spacecraft operate in a vacuum and leave the World entirely ... to make any kind of sense from the situation there have to be limitations.

    Once folk liked to imagine speed record attempts doing some good by developing technology that could be adapted to mundane purposes for the benefit of the rest of humanity. That argument was used many times as a justification for the risks taken. Not just speed records either: fuel injection developed for WW II fighter aircraft is one of the reasons my fairly large vehicle gets the same mileage as the tinny and tinny heap I had as my first car.

    Rocket and jet propulsion are unlikely to work out on the everyday road. Similarly, boards and foils are unlikely, ever, to translate into something I can do the shopping in from an island cottage. And I really don't see hundreds of miles of shallow water-filled ditches spanning the continents ... but these are claimed as valid. Recognizing boarders as true sailing craft is beginning to look like the thin edge of a very uncomfortable wedge!
     
  5. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    I notice we are studiously ignoring the achievements of ice yachting

    they are boats and they run on water
    they also are beating the daylights out of the ditch people
    I wonder if maybe they don't have enough people on the race committee or something cause 150 mph + isn't just a win its a drubbing like no other

    water looks cold boys

    [​IMG]
    the Miss Wisconsin on lake Winnebago, coming back from a practice run timed at ~120+ mph in a 30 mph wind
    this boats designer says he's looking to top out at ~200mph

    these are the guys who are going for the record and they are doing it the old fashioned way, no external power sources and no berm to redirect the wind. That and the cold cold water looks pretty comparable to other cold water I've seen
     
  6. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    sure but Terry we are talking overall speed sailing record aren't we
    the fastest wind powered vehicle is most definitely an ice yacht
    so why are the ditch people trying to usurp the clear winners
    ice boats

    depth of water?
    average depth of water in lake Winnebago is 15.5' :D
    plenty to meet the required depth specially considering the multi hull rule
    after all that is a trihull configuration isn't it and they have rules for that right :p
     
  7. ancient kayaker
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    - the flag on the wingsail doesn't quite match the locale. bet he gets a lot of comments like "the Redcoats are coming" ...
     
  8. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    I'm always surprised at how many of these types of speed records the English hold
    do you think its a creative interpretation of the rules or do you suppose there really just that much better than the next guy
     
  9. Doug Lord
    Joined: May 2009
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Hydroptere-Fastest Sailboat on the Planet!

    Interesting letter to the editor from Scuttlebutt tonight:

    From Neil Pryde, Managing Director of Neil Pryde Limited:

    I have been acting as an Ambassador for the IKA (International Kiteboarding
    Association) in order to assist Kitesurfing in its objective to attain
    Olympic Event status.

    I have now withdrawn my endorsement of the IKA Campaign because it is my
    view that Kitesurfing has not yet developed the rules of competition and
    disciplines that must be demonstrated to qualify Kitesurfing as an Olympic
    Event.
    As the Managing Director of Neil Pryde Limited, the owner of Cabrinha, a
    world leader in Kitesurfing I remain a strong supporter of Kitesurfing and
    I believe that the sport will continue to grow and develop as a lifestyle /
    adventure sport. Kitesurfing offers tremendous opportunities to combine
    sport and travel and there is no doubt that it is an exciting action sport
    that ultimately could obtain Olympic status.

    However it is important to look at Kitesurfing today and understand the
    limitations of the sport within the requirements of an Olympic Event.

    I would support the inclusion of Kitesurfing as a Demonstration Event at
    the 2016 Olympic Games if this is feasible. --
    http://www.neilpryde.com/latest/kitesurfing-as-an-olympic-event.html
     
  10. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    Well said. One point, however, is that as far as I can recall, there may never have been a single outright sailing speed record holder that could translate into something that could be used for shopping in an island cottage, so it's not just the foilers and boards that could be picked out for that reason. No one was going to take Crossbow I and II out to pick up the beer, although you could (at a stretch) do it on the early windsurfers that got class wins, like Van Der Rest's.

    The boards and kites allow people to access leading-edge speedsailing without having to spend a gozillion dollars on a 60 foot foiler or an extremely complex-to-handle one-way machine like MI or Windrocket. Arguably that makes them as (or more) utalitarian for speed sailing, even if they go best on ditches.

    It would be fascinating to see records for more "utalitarian" craft, although classification would be a major issue unless people were just prepared to accept that there'd be some dispute, and they wouldn't call those with different views "cheats".

    Mind you, the early South Bay Scooters could be used to get the shopping winter or summer, and they'd allegedly sometimes do it at 50 knots, making them the fastest "soft water" boats of all - it's just that they were fastest on the frozen stuff! :)


    http://ice-scooter.org/history.php
     
  11. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    Considering that they've been running organised speed record attempts since the 1950s and the Weymouth Speed Week started in about 1972, it's not exactly a surprise if they have.

    And do they really hold a disproportionate number of records?
     
  12. Cheesy
    Joined: Aug 2008
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    Cheesy Senior Member

    The rules seem pretty straight forward with regard to the course

    3. THE COURSE
    The record shall be established over a minimum of 500 m on water (not ice).

    The course may be defined by posts and transits ashore (Transits shall not converge), or by WSSRC approved GPS survey equipment.

    For every record attempt on a WSSRC approved course, there must be a minimum depth of water, which is defined as follows.
    At the time of the run in question, the shallowest part of the course must be covered by water with a depth of at least half the static immersed beam of the craft involved, or 10cm, whichever is the greater. (Guidance note To define the depth requirement, the craft or board involved should be afloat and the widest part of the hull or hulls touching the water should be measured. In the case of a multihull, the widest hull is measured or hydrofoil if fitted). In the case of an event involving a number of competing craft, the WSSRC Commissioner can announce at the commencement of the event what the minimum depth requirement will be.
     
  13. Cheesy
    Joined: Aug 2008
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    Location: NZ

    Cheesy Senior Member

    Im sure someone could pen a letter along similar lines about the Moth in the Olympics as well. That letter does not have a lot to do with speed records, well other than it being a Cabrina kite that holds the record at the moment.
     
  14. Blue Leader
    Joined: Nov 2010
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    Location: Cape Cod

    Blue Leader Junior Member

    Hey buddies-

    The WSSRC (a group of highly experienced sailors) has had a commissioner on the ground and in the water off Luderitz for all of the WR attempts in 2007, '08, '09 and '10. I'm pretty sure that the critics of the WR kitesurfers in this forum have never been there.

    I refer to my kiteboard as a "stick". As in, "Hey dude, check out my new stick." and i call it sailing and kiting depending on the mood i'm in.

    I debate this topic cause its fun and kiters who sail in ditches can sail back up wind. I'm Not sure if SR2 will be able to do that but its ok cause its allowed under the rules.

    I dont have to explain it to the USCG......its the WSSRC that matters when talking about speed sailing and WR attempts. There is nothing wrong with ice boating! I Would love to do it if the water froze in my town.....but the ice boats will have a hard time getting around the WSSRC's required water depth rule. You cant pick and choose the rules.

    "Mechanically adjusting the wind"........almost sounds like a little paranoia here.

    "looks like cheating"... "one type of vehicle"...."berm was built that acts like a wind break for the riders while at the same time enhancing wind speeds"???

    I believe that some of the critics should go and witness a WR attempt like the WSSRC has been doing since 1972. Things might become clearer than they "look" when you are NOT 10,000 miles away.......just maybe?

    I propose we all return to our roots and get together with our different sailing craft to have a fun race around the cans......just for braggers rights. I'll bring the refreshments!
     
    1 person likes this.

  15. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    cant help but notice that one particular organizations rather loose interpretation of the rules seems to favor one type of vehicle over sailboats, fortunately there are more than one ruling bodies governing wind only powered sailing speed records and some seem to include all contenders regardless of creed or color.

    which brings us back to a very honest question, namely ya gotta wonder how that exactly happened, how was it that in one of the organizations one moment kites where not recognized just like kites seem to refuse to recognize very cold water boats and the next moment kites are recognized and yet cold water boats are not
    seems pretty fishy to more than a few people or we wouldn't be having this conversation. Call me curiosity but the question is just begging for an answer.

    I also notice that the fact that a skate creates a film of water beneath it separating warmer water from the colder water was not addressed. The fact remains that a really cold water boat actually does run on water. As for the minimum depth rule, fortunately lake Winnebago seems to be deep enough to meet the depth requirements of this particular sitting committee, so I cant imagine any issues there. No real excuse then for these great contenders not to be recognized by everyone as the fastest sail powered craft in the world, they certainly are by the International Skeeter Association/IDNIYRA. And they don't use any external enhancements like the some people, no wind breaks, no chop killers, no purpose built course only they can use. Just a bunch of cold water and some wind.

    call me paranoid but it seems pretty clear that the outright record is held by an ice boat ( oops, very cold water boat ) as ratified by the International Skeeter Association/IDNIYRA, who I"m sure are a group of dedicated individuals and volunteers who not only deserve the recognition and admiration of all who worked so hard to make these fantastic achievements they are but also who's time just might have come to finally get the credit they deserve for being the fastest sail powered craft in the world.

    frankly I find it shameful that the ditchers are trying to pass themselves off as the outright fastest wind powered vehicles

    I suppose the best thing for anyone with questions about this to do would be to get your but out on some cold water and watch how these races are held, cause these folks are hands down the fastest sail powered vehicles out there

    cheers
    B
     
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