Fastest Sailboat on the Planet!

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Jan 22, 2007.

  1. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    explain it to the USCG and see how it flies

    sorry but although the present race committee for some mysterious reason seems very sympathetic to your cause it's pretty obvious that even a cursory challenge would force them to reevaluate

    boards are not required to register as boats because they don't qualify as boats according to the Coast guard who has the final say in legal maters concerning the definition of water craft

    and yes there is legal precedent to support the USCG designation
     
  2. ancient kayaker
    Joined: Aug 2006
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    Still at it eh?

    Why do you bother to argue? The issue was decided many decades ago, ice yachts hold the world sailng speed record without a remote challenge from any other craft and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. Also, they are capable of sailing around a course that returns to its starting point, something a ditcher can manifestly not do and they can sail over unlimited depths of water.

    If you would just drop the artificial definition of water in the liquid state then this whole meaningless repetitive space-, byte- and time-consuming discussion can be dropped in favor of something meaningful.

    Then we will not have to agonize over who is "cheating" or who is wasting the most money or who is unfairly using military assets or who is only able to sail in highly localized areas or answer the eternal riddle of when is a boat not a whatever.

    As far as the kiters and boarders are concerned, why not let the children play? Surely you guys have something more important to do?
     
  3. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    I gotta go with the old guy on this one
    if the committee is going to ignore the rules then they might as well declare ice yachts the winners and get it over with

    its a yacht
    a yacht is a boat
    its powered by sail
    and its on water
    screw if the rules say anything about ice or not just like we're ignoring the parts about racing in similar conditions or using external mechanical systems or wind enhancing devices

    if ignoring the rules isn't cheating then why is it ice yachters haven't there place in the registry of fastest wind powered "boat" after all they were invented by the coast guard so they must be boats

    ok so we have a new time of 158 MPH

    cheers
    B

    PS
    Terry I'd throw you some points for that one but the bloody thing wont let me
    great input tho and cuts right to the chase
     
  4. P Flados
    Joined: Oct 2010
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    Location: N Carolina

    P Flados Senior Member

    With Paul ready to have a go at it with SR2, with the Hydroptere team still active (longer distances as a focus - but still advancing their craft), and with the Kite-boards still early in the speed sailing development cycle, speed sailing is getting interesting again.

    We know that some individuals do not like aspects of the current speed sailing game. Some aspects of the game may not be perfect, but re-hashing them is not adding a lot of value. Lets try to keep things positive. Celebrate the achievements of the clever, daring and maybe foolhardy guys out there on the water that are sailing at speeds that are approaching Highway driving.
     
  5. DennisRB
    Joined: Sep 2004
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    Location: Brisbane

    DennisRB Senior Member

    Blue Leader. How many times have you referred to a kiteboard as a boat in real life? How many times have you heard ANYONE refer to a kiteboard as a boat in real life besides when trying to compare speeds with real boats? EG; "hey it looks like a good day to take out my boat" or "hey take a look at my new boat" or "my new boat is awesome" etc when talking a about a kiteboard.

    We all know the answer is NEVER. (well possibly AFTER the board/boat argument started but certainly not before) Since the actual kiteboarders don't call their boards boats because even they themselves know they are not boats, why the hell would anyone else respect them as boats? You have to be joking.
     
  6. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    looks like cheating when you dig a ditch nobody else can ride in and then mechanically adjust the wind and waves

    sorry but just calling it as I see it
    as do a lot of other folks apparently

    otherwise whats wrong with recognizing the tremendous achievements of ice boating

    150+ mph is nothing to sneeze at and blows the doors off the ditch

    whats really funny is that ice boats don't run on ice
    they run on a microscopic layer of water between the blades and the ice so technically they are on water, exactly as specified in the rules and
    they are boats
     
  7. Cheesy
    Joined: Aug 2008
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    Location: NZ

    Cheesy Senior Member

    Actually my insurance company does, its a bit of a pain having to insure a board and kite as a boat instead of under my contents......
     
  8. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    well thats kinda cheesy :p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p

    sorry had to
    leave it to an insurance company to ignore the USCG ruling and place a surf board in a boating bracket
     
  9. Cheesy
    Joined: Aug 2008
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    Location: NZ

    Cheesy Senior Member

    Well the USCG doesnt really have a whole lot of jurisdiction in my part of the world so its not totally surprising
     
  10. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    well does the NZCG require a registration number on a surf board or sail board cause unless they do then there not classified as a boat there either

    just sayin that there's a legal definition of these things and around here its whatever the USCG says
     
  11. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
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    Location: Sydney Australia

    CT 249 Senior Member

    As a long-term windsurfer, I'd have to agree that we don't call them boats (well, with the sole exception of the old 12'9" round-bottomed Division 2 boards, which were sometimes called "boats" in a joking manner). Even 12'8" raceboards are not called boats.

    However, maybe it's partly a matter of custom. Take a Moth - it's shorter than many windsurfers, its hull is narrower than most windsurfers. The sailors rarely sit on the hull (the use the wings) and never sit "in" it. In light winds, windsurfers can be sailed sitting down. There was one very successful racing longboard here that had a rudder, and there were racing boards and tandems in the 14-(IIRC) 19 foot length range.

    So if one designed a 19 foot board with a rudder and often sailed it sitting down, would it be more or less a boat than a theoretical mini-hull Moth of minimal displacement? Where is the rigid line between "boards" and "boats"? After all, there have been several attempts to produce craft that could be adapted from one to the other - what are they?

    Then again, if we are going to break down competitors by their configuration, where do we stop? Do we also have a catamaran record, a monohull record, a displacement boat record, a dinghy record? Personally, it would add a lot of interest to see more "class" records - the land speed record and air speed records have a huge number of classes so that many more types can compete. But since the current setup isn't really that way, maybe the "boats" just have to accept it.

    Some time ago I read a mid '70s AYRS report on the Weymouth Speed Trials where the boat-oriented author was complaining about the windsurfers and how they should be restricted. It was rather amusing because I always thought the AYRS speed record guys often seemed to complain about the existence of rules restricting design in other areas of the sport. It seems that they hated rules only until others started beating them, then the formerly despised rules and entry restrictions started to look attractive! It's a theme that repeats itself regularly.

    On the other hand, one could also say that the fact that Hydroptere doesn't fit into the ditch is merely the outcome of her designer's choice, which is part of the competition. If you choose a small craft, you can fit into the Ditch. If you choose a large craft like Hydroptere then you made other choices, and must live with the outcome of those choices.

    Similarly, the craft that can only sail one-way have to live with getting fewer runs within the limited time when conditions are perfect; that's the trade-off for the gains of assymetric designs. If people choose to enter a category like speedsailing where rules are few, to some extent you could say that they cannot complain when others use that very freedom in different ways.

    But one thing that most of us seem to agree on is that it's a low blow to call someone a cheat when the body that rules speed records says they are not cheats - not to say disrespectful of the volunteers on the council.

    Boston, do you think that it's fair that anyone could call you a cheat if you had abided by all the rules of a competition, simply because they didn't agree with the rules?

    By that measure, just about anyone could be called a cheat.

    BTW Boston, here in Sydney surfboards used to have to have numbers, and I think in Germany in the boomtime of windsurfing there was a registration scheme. So the use of registration or numbers is hardly relevant.
     
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  12. bad dog
    Joined: Apr 2009
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    Location: Broken Bay, Australia

    bad dog bad dog

    Am I missing something - isn't it the "sailing speed record" ? Is the distinction between what kind of sailcraft a secondary factor? From that point I agree 'classes' make a lot of sense. So Hydrop can claim to the fastest sailboat, the ditch skimmers the fastest board, the iceboats the fastest thin-film waterborne craft or whatever. (Thanks for the info on that too - we don't get to see many of these amazing beasties in Oz. How thin is that film of water?)
     
  13. whitepointer23

    whitepointer23 Previous Member

    good post, sent you some points.
     
  14. Boston

    Boston Previous Member

    the rules are pretty clear and I think a lot of people think that this present sitting committee is misrepresenting them to the point where conversations like this are not uncommon

    the legal definition of a boat around here is "whatever the coast guard says it is"

    rule 1 is really clear in that it provides that similar conditions exist for all contenders, this is clearly not the case in the ditch.

    so ya it looks like cheating

    another rule clearly excludes the use of external mechanical devices, this rule was also ignored.

    again it looks like cheating

    also a berm was built that acts like a wind break for the riders while at the same time enhancing wind speeds for the kites, again a clear breach of the rules

    looks a lot like cheating again

    three major deviations all intended to favor one type of vehicle and in the end a half dozen or so contenders who otherwise would unlikely be competitive.

    so you tell me is it unfair to question the interpretation of these rules as cheating when obviously by ignoring these rules some craft are favored over others. Clearly these guys are using external mechanical devises and constructs designed to enhance there speed when other "boats" are not using these devices. Seems pretty fishy to allow such biased rulings to go unquestioned. Begs the use of terms like cheating and bias in the present sitting committee

    personally I think we owe it to the sport to honor the spirit of the competition by "regulating" a level playing field

    if not and we go with these unbelievably biased interpretations of the rules then whats to stop the iceboats from coming in and arguing that they in fact do race on water. Which is absolutely true from a technical point of view.

    and why won't this present sitting committee afford them the honor of being the fastest sail powered "craft" which the most certainly are?

    in the end the real question becomes "why is this present sitting committee acting in such a blatantly biased manor" why will they not recognize the tremendous achievements of ice-yachting
     

  15. CT 249
    Joined: Dec 2004
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    "1. GENERAL
    The purpose of these rules is to enable attempts to be made on Sailing Speed Records in any part of the world under comparable conditions. They do not form the conditions of any prize or trophy, nor are they sailing instructions."

    Seems pretty easy to read it in the way the Committee does.

    Obviously the word "comparable" does not mean "identical". For example, the Hydroptere record was set in a place that often enjoys strong winds. There are many places in the world that do not enjoy such strong winds. Therefore Hydroptere's record was not set in conditions identical to the conditions in any part of the world - does that mean that Hydroptere's record should also be dumped?

    Obviously, "comparable" does not mean "identical" -or Hydroptere is out, too.

    The other issue is that there are some places in the world where there are effectively natural speed courses - Weymouth, of course, and Sandy Point in Victoria, Australia (which is very prominent in the GPS windsurfing rankings). Sandy is reputed by some to be the best natural speed spot in the world - so if we accept that, there are NO other "comparable conditions" in the known natural world. Weymouth was, of course, chosen for early speed trials because of its natural benefits.

    So even if we rule out man-made ditches, there are still places in the world that have an advantage over most other places - so if you take out the man-made ditches we still arguably don't have "comparable" conditions, unless you define "comparable" rather loosely as the Committee do.

    The first ditch was built many years ago and I don't speedsail (I do what some speedsailers say is the next-closest form of competition), but I do seem to recall that part of the reason they built the first Ditch was to get Weymouth-like flat water and uninterrupted wind in France. So the Ditch may have been an attempt to level the playing field, which at the time was seen to be heavily biased to Weymouth.

    By the way, there's a contradiction here, Boston. A page back, Doug noted that the Weymouth trials divide boats and boards. You replied, saying "case closed entirely".

    So what you are saying is that if a certain bunch of officials (the Weymouth guys) make a ruling, it's "case closed entirely". However, if another bunch of officials (the top speed committee) makes a ruling, then that ruling is wrong and those who abide by it are cheats.

    What makes one ruling from officialdom so authoratative that it closes cases, and the other ruling so wrong that those that follow it are "cheats"?

    BTW, under the definition " I think if the boat starts at zero speed supporting its crew in a hull with a rig attached to and supported by the hull it is safe to say that it is a boat!" my Windsurfers (TM) are boats, or could be boats with one simple plug-and-play attachment from a retail store! That just shows the issues of defining such things.
     
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