Fastest classic sail yacht?

The 28' LOA/19" LWL 1 Rater Sorceress, designed by Linton Hope in 1894, was 1470lbs in displacement. She looks flatter than a Patiki AFAIK. Of course boats like Outlook were probably more radical.

I haven't got the foggiest idea about the rules the Anniversary Day regatta was sailed under on the day that Ariki was beaten, but surely there's much more to it than sycophants getting pissed off. Ariki is still around, the Patikis are long dead. Why should someone be forced to race a durable and graceful yacht like Ariki against a Patiki? The Patikis were fantastic boats, but surely they are as different as a 65' cat is to Ragtime, or like an Emmie and a foiler Moth?

We regularly hear scorn being heaped on people who want to ban boats, but the fact is that many classes DO die when people have no choice but to either get beaten or sail an expensive race machine. And frankly, doesn't it actually show a lack of imagination (as well as empathy and perhaps manners) to just show up with a stripped out race machine and win?

I could probably make a couple of simple modifications to one of my boats and trounce the national champion next time I race him (simply by switching my Int Canoe gear onto the Laser) but what in the world would it prove?

I love stuff like Magic Bus and Raters, but they DID stuff up their classes. The often-abused "conservatives" were in fact correct. Surely what we need to do is to recognise that and to try to bring the two sides together in the future.

The thing that does get to me is that time and time again, we hear the fast-boat sailors sneer and ***** at those who sail the existing boats, when in fact they have done nothing more than the equivalent of turning up to the V8 saloon races in a Formula 1. It doesn't take brains or talent and often they are extremely poor winners, and very destructive to the sport as a whole.

 

Great points CT, I think that is the reason for the quick rise of one design racing with strict scantling rules about 1910-1920... If you are going to build to a development or measurement rule you have to be ready to race against faster boats.
the ridiculous part is when people with cruising type boats (slow) go and spend lots of money on all sorts of go fast gear like carbon sails, masts, rod rigging... If you want to compare it to car racing it's like bragging that you have the FASTEST RV-Winnebago.

Point well taken.
There was a big problem in Newengland with the Massachussetts Bay Yachting Association waterline class boats, around 1900 the boats were so light they were only good for 2-3 years of racing.
The exciting part about these boat types is that today with the judicious use of some modern materials similar hulls could be built to last a life time.
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

 

Gary
thanks for the great info. excelent.
I have really been interested in waterline class hulls, I recently designed and built a 18' knockabout for a customer, 12.5 ft. waterline
http://dansdories.googlepages.com/ipswichbay18
I have sailed on this boat in 15-18 mph winds the boat was planeing along at 10-12 mph

I also traveled to Ohio a few yrs. back to look at a wooden E scow for sale. The boat was built by Johnson boat works about 1950 , cedar on oak ribs with beautifull spruce framing, copper fastened, the quality of craftsmanship was incredible the boat was built to aircraft standards.
E Scows at 28' x 7' weigh in just under 1000 lbs with mast and rigging, but the hulls are good for 30-40+ yrs of sailing so I believe a Patika hull could be a little lighter, If it was around 800 I think two strong men could lift it.

The Sonder Klase was a German measurement rule with a balasted finkeel and deep blade rudder.
the other photos are of a more extreme cup racer Sewanhaka Cup these boats were the first in the US to use bildge boards and double rudders.
The most extreme boats were the Mass Bay Yacht Assoc. waterline class scows. These boats built to 15, 18 and 20' waterlines could be as long as 50 ft. on deck and carry over 5,000 sq ft of sail. The hulls were double planked cedar less than 1/2 inch thick the hulls were covered in canvas like a canoe, the deck was canvas over pine slats 1/4 inch and a mis step by a crew member could put a hole in the deck.
Mass Bay Waterline/ Qincy Cup scows
http://www.esseximages.com/images/mgeneral/J1248FlshlightSloop_xl.JPG
http://www.esseximages.com/images/mgeneral/J1171OutlookSloop_xl.JPG
Good stuff
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

 

hi CT249, Anniversary Day was/is a collection of disparate classes of yachts often sailing the same course but at different times. The fact that an upstart Patiki circled Auckland's fastest and most impressive yacht, Ariki, was an impression that lasted with regatta organiser of many years, Tom McKnight. Ariki then would not be looked at as "durable and graceful" but the most advanced, unbeatable and modern yacht of the times. It was not a situation like an M Class against a foiler Moth but more like a V70 against a Formula 28 multihull, both very different but both at the high end of sailing performance - and to me an interesting result. You apparently don't see it that way. Similarly the big boat KZ1 NZ against the smaller Stars & Stripes wing rigged cat of 1988 - that was an eye opener to many people and an (albeit disgruntled) education. Again very interesting because the big boat (Goliath) was more than just impressive.
It is human nature to improve on last year's design, this will never stop; many people love one design classes, others prefer open development. This is old stuff and hardly needs be said but the fact that the one design comes from the results of earlier free thinkers, should not be forgotten. Also I think your argument that Whiting's Magic Bus stuffed up IOR is incorrect, IOR was turning ridiculously over ruled and restrictive to performance - it was a natural development that sport boats arrived to compensate. In fact, the fascination today (this after 30 years) by both conservative and open minded sailors with radical boats like Whiting's Magic Bus and Newspaper Taxi, sort of proves my point.
I also disagree with your (specious) V8/F1 analogy that it takes no brains or talent to turn up with such things, actually it requires courage and much thought to go against the grain of conservative thinking - being ostracized is not a pleasurable experience.

 

Gary, I understand Ariki's place in the sailing scene. The way I read your post, with terms like "getting the gun", was that Ariki was racing the Patiki.

As you point out in your Vo 70 v F28 analogy, Ariki was very different from the Patiki. I agree that it was a fascinating result, but the point was that since (as you point out in your analogy) the two craft were so disparate, if the "Ariki supporters" chose to defend their type by banning the patiki then surely they had a reasonable point - these days we don't race Vo70s and Moths and F28s and A Class keelers together.

I DO see the performance as fascinating, but I don't see that those who had put enormous amounts of time, money and effort into the "establishment" craft should be severely criticised (as they often are) for defending that massive input they had made.

I love Magic Bus to death; that's why I still have the magazine article about her that I got when she was new and I was 13 years old. If I didn't love Kiwi lightweight level raters, I wouldn't have lived for 2 years aboard a 2200kg half tonner so I could afford to buy it.

All I'm saying is that the views of those who owned the heavier older boats also deserve recognition. Imagine being the poor ******* in '72 who may have scrimped and saved for years to buy a Salthouse Cav 26 or Cav 32 or similar heavy level-rater. Your dream is to own a boat that can race competitively at top level AND take your beloved family away for a few week's holiday each year AND do a Cat 1 race with a good chance of finishing.

Suddenly, along come boats (heavy and light) that are just race machines. Suddenly, you're one of those derided losers, and the dream machine you have slaved for and sacrificed for is worthless for its intended purpose.

Surely we can recognise the pain that was caused to such people, all in the name of finishing a race 5m earlier? I know people who built medium-displacement boats in the mid '70s (Kaufman 1 tons etc) with their own hands, only to have them made almost obsolete by The Red Lion etc. Surely we can understand their desire to have their beloved craft (one still owns the same home-build 37, 31 years later) kept as competitive racers rather than thrown on the scrapheap by the lightweights or race machines?

To that extent, the stripped-out race machines (whether by Elvstrom, Chance or Whiting) and their dominance DID hurt the IOR around the world.

In reply to Daniel's point about those who choose development classes, in most placed there was no alternative - it was IOR or nothing. And yes, in some ways such boats may be like racing Winnebagos - but if the owners like it, who cares?

My slowest (around a course) craft hits 25+ knots fairly easily, my fiance's first boat was a carbon Marstom Tornado - and yet when we're on our "Winnebago" the only comparative performance that we care about is how fast we go compared to other "Winnebagos". It's just like the way when you are racing a Moth, open class windsurfer or Formula cat, all you care about is how you compare to someone else in a comparable boat. Sure, in the "Winnebago" you may be doing 6 knots instead of 9; who cares, if speed was all that mattered we'd hop into the Winnebago's tender and let rip with the outboard!

Enjoyment and comparative speed are what most of sailors look for, and whatever boat gives them that is surely fantastic, no matter how old-fashioned it may be. Therefore when their craft is made obsolete by a newer craft, surely we can understand that they object. All boats will become old and slow, why not try to arrange things so that they are all made competitive and valued?

The fast-boat sailors I was referring to (and I apologise for not being more specific) are those who march into a class designed and constructed by and for cruiser/racer sailors, and then knock it to pieces with a racing machine and behave unpleasantly towards those who dare to sail slower craft. You can find quite a few examples of these around. They have certainly ostracised sailors from older craft, which is particularly galling since the old-boat sailors often created the events and classes from which they have become effectively excluded.

But why should someone who buys a sportboat or bay cat be as derogatory towards a Farr 7500, Cav 32, Peterson 36, Ross 780 or Noelex 25 owner as they sometimes are? The Noelex owner, for example, wants a craft he or she can comfortably cruise and comfortably race against comparable craft. Their craft achieves that, so who gives a rodent's rectum if it's comparatively slow? Lots of off-the-beach boats, or the venerable but wonderful GBE, can knock spots off a sportsboat but that doesn't mean the sporty is crap - so why should some fast-boat sailors be so unpleasant towards slower craft? Surely development-style classes would be stronger if they made more allowance for the older boats, rather than dissing them as they often do.

Finally, with respect many of hte most important ODs have not had a huge amount of development-class input. Look at the Sunfish, Heron/Mirror/GP14, Laser, J/24, Hobie and Windsurfer. Some of them represent enormous leaps in design and imagination.

BTW, I come from a background of racing (and sometimes creating the rules for) some of the most open design classes in the world. All I'm saying is that if people love sailing their boats - whether they are Herons, or the Cav 32s that Titus beat, or Ariki, or S&S 1 tons or 53, or Peterson 36s, then their love should be respected by others and their craft should be cherished and respected, not destroyed as racing propositions.

 

Hi Ct
I'm not sure about the rudeness of sailors, I hear you have some pretty rough skiff types down under, I think around Newengland there is'nt that much name calling, in fact I am quite polite, I smile and wave as I sail past larger and much more expensive boats.
I think there is a general disinterest among performance sailors in cruising boats... generaly cruising boat owners are quite attached to their boats and will go on and on about eletrical problems, a clogged head, potable water, eletronics etc... Are we talking about a house or sailing?
When I go out sailing I dont want to drag my bed, bathroom, kitchen and entertainment center along, there is no Ill will, I am just not interested...

back to the FASTEST boat!
Dan

 

The best work I've found on the early light-displacement boats like the Sonders is "The Small Yacht, Its Management and Handling for Racing and Sailing" by Edwin Boardman (1911). It contains lines and construction plans for Sonders and Seawanhaka scows. The first photo shows "Manchester," the winner of the Seawanhaka Cup for 1905. The second shows "Blackchin," my model Sonder made to the Vintage Marblehead rules (50" LOA, 800 sq in SA).

Cheers,

Earl

 

What is your little dayboat ?

I really enjoy this discussion and find it fascinating reading these boards. I am not a designer but 'just a sailor', and a woman sailor at that, who is looking to liveaboard a fast sailboat from 30 to 34 feet. If I had the bucks, I'd hire a designer but alas, will have to go with used production boat.
I only wish there were more boats designed for the pure joy of flying with the wind, without concern for 'rules'.
Thanks.

 

Well, all very good stuff, CT, and no rational person can disagree with your diplomatic viewpoints in defense of middle-of-the-road yacht classes..... but for me the life and blood of yacht design is the stuff that is at the leading edge, the avant garde, the people at the front of the train, not those riding safely and comfortably in the middle and rear carriages. I mean if you enter this game with a "Winnebago" competing with the forefront thinkers and highly skilled practitioners, of course you're going to be blown into the weeds. My view to this approach is that you have your philosophy all screwed up. And don't whinge about the athletes ahead of you. Or churlishly pass legislation to outlaw them.
I thought we kiwis were pretty bad at slagging off at others but you aussies, from your sensitivity to counter the bullies in local fleets, sound like our sailors are exquisitely polite gentlemen by comparison. That can't be true, can it?

 

A few more images of the Napier Patiki/Rater designs - plus Jack Logan's famous scow-like Unrestricted 18 footer champion Komutu.

 

ImogeneZ
Often times live-aboard and high performance do not go hand in hand, especially on a boat as small as 30-35'.
But if you can live with a spartan interior, like a Hereshoff interior, vs today's cruisers (everything, including the kitchen sink) you can get a better performing boat for less money.
If you are interested in new construction I think you may be surprised how reasonable the price is for a light displacement boat, often times a light (faster) boat is actually cheaper to build than a heavy (slower) boat.
This year at the Maine Boat Buliders Show I was offering a 26' light displacement "Spirit of Tradition" racer for under 24,000.
You can get a lot of boat length+preformance wise if you are willing to give up some weight.

Gary thanks for the great photos! did you get a chance to take a look at the Quincy cups scows? I'm not sure how to post photos to the forum, any hints?
Dan
http://dansdories.googlepages.com

 

I am surprised. I'm more than happy to be spartan with the interior. No RV mama here. But I will be living aboard. I'm not the typical demographic for sure, just want the basics below & a place to take a nap in the cockpit at anchor.
Thanks for the info.

 

Couldn't find the Wave-rider alteration image - but found these instead: Wave-rider in 1977 form (Laurie's half model) and the alterations to Davidson's Quarter Tonner Hellaby (second to Bullit in 1980) which had similar changes to Wave-rider with built up and faired rocker areas, increased ballast plus a chopped stern, here held up by Terry Cookson.
If you want Davidson's Half Tonner name to reproduce, put a hyphen in - very weird?
Daniel, yes, checked out the extreme Quincy designs, very extreme but unlike the Napier Patikis, CT, with examples (Aoma, launched around 1905) lasting up until the late 1960's, these monsters lasted only a few years.

 

Hello from Brasil!!!!

dear PAR,
You told in your thread that you have some plans of J Class Boats in your wall.
I am a new guy in this forum and I am also a RC Builder here in Brasil and looking for plans of J Class,
I am asking you if you can help me with this plans.
Thanks in advance.
Navegador - Jose Henrique

 

Ranger still holds the America's Cup record for the fastest race - 3 hrs 7min 49sec