Fasteners; Remove,replace,or???

Discussion in 'Wooden Boat Building and Restoration' started by steveroo, Mar 8, 2009.

  1. steveroo
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    Location: Portland,Oregon

    steveroo Junior Member

    Well things are proceeding on the Monk rather well, but a lot will hafta wait til ol man winter gives way to warmer days..In the meantime another project boat ( not moored, but in the driveway) has been getting some attention and I have a little issue that has me asking for a solution. The boat is a 1965 "Cruisers" make, 18' Lapstrake with oak ribs 6" oc. Not a spec of rot but I noticed the other day that there are nails @ 3"oc along the length of the keel, outboard and they are about 75% loose..i.e. I can grasp the heads and wiggle/pull them out. I'm sure in large part it's due to the hull having been on dry land the last 3 years, but.. I was wondering. They appear to be "drywall nails" about a 6d with little rust. My question is..should I remove them and then epoxy butter newer larger shank nails and then just nail into the old hole, or should I epoxy and toothpick the old holes and simply move the pattern an 1 1/2" and renail say galvanized or copper ringshanks? I believe that this is the garboard seam, but it certainly needs refastening. This only occurs at the hull/keelson interface, the rest of the lapstrake is in beautiful condition
     

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  2. TeddyDiver
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    Location: Finland/Norway

    TeddyDiver Gollywobbler

    I would either:
    1. remove, clean the sh**, and set new larger ones (copper pref..)
    2. If holes after drilling are too big to nails just plug with (best if pre treated ie cooked in woodtar or iroko/teak) wood pins and set new holes for new nails or ringshanks..
     
  3. ancient kayaker
    Joined: Aug 2006
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    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    Check the bottom of the keel again for rot, it looks a different color, might just be damp but ... also give it the sniff test after it has been covered for a few hours.
     
  4. steveroo
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    steveroo Junior Member

    fasteners r&r

    TD,,Thanx for that info..pretty much along my lines of thought..there's actually not much sh!! involved, but the "wood pins" sounds intriguing..are they like toothpicks? and AK...I'm sure there's no rot or decay..if anything, possibly a bit of rust, but the wood is dry and smells okay.I'm hoping I can find a thicker shanked copper ringshank and just replace them, does anyone think it would be prudent to dip the nails in some 3M5200 and then drive and wipe off excess or is that overkill?? Thanks to all for your input!!
     
  5. alan white
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    alan white Senior Member

    The nails you're finding, I think, are roofing nails, used to apply copper or anything where galvanised would be inferior. I've used them on boats, but not where immersed. Replace them with longer ring shank nails. Whatever is being attached, go 1.5 times the attached piece's thickness at least.
     
  6. steveroo
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    steveroo Junior Member

    fasteners yaddayadda

    Thanx Alan, The nails I will be replacing are the spittin image of a drywall nail, and I suspect that they might have used them cuz in 64 they were readily available, and they're coated so as not to bleed thru paint over wallboard...really appreciate the 1 1/2 X thickness tho..and ringshanks for sure..still kinda thinkin I might dip em in the 5200...that's an awesome marine adhesive, and should "waterproof" the application..
     
  7. apex1

    apex1 Guest

    And drill the holes out first, then use dowels (preferrably of the same wood species, otherwise same hardness), epoxied in. Make shure to find the dowels first, then to decide the size of hole. (I did it the other way once, then enjoyed half a weekend of lathing dowels).Not on a boat although.
     
  8. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    You have a "roved" boat. The nails you're finding on the garboard go through the planking into the keel. This is done because the keel is too deep for a rove.

    Usually when the garboard "works" (moves because of loose fasteners) in lapped boats like this, the weak link are those frame bay fasteners on the keel batten. They need to be replaced, though I'd strongly recommend you clean up the lap and apply some polysulfide before either repairing the holes and using new fasteners in different holes or using the same holes.

    The garboard take the majority of the loads on the lower portion of the planking. These fasteners will have "egged" out their holes and it's very likely there will be rot inside the holes. Garboards are usually replaced well before the rest of the planking, for this reason. I can see some of the frame roves have "weeped" and you can bet they have some rot inside their holes.

    Screws are the usually remedy. Bronze screws considering the roves are pretty much required. You'll be able to reused the old holes, if they pilot hole drill out solid. If not, drill out for a dowel, plug them and move the fastener spacing. Screws hold much better then nails, but are harder to replace when the time comes. Considering the age of the garboards, it's surely replacement time, but you can try to get some additional service with new fasteners.

    This brings up another point. By 1965, most all manufactures were using polysulfide in the seams of lapped boats. Only Lyman, that I know of wasn't up to speed on this stuff (they were in '66), so it's likely your boat also has goo in the laps, though I didn't see any in your interior image. The places to look for this are in the extreme bow and around the transom. These are areas where removing excess was difficult and often not preformed.

    If there isn't polysulfide in the seams, you have a wood to wood interface which needs to be in good shape or it'll leak. On wood to wood garboard seams it was very common to install a continuous piece of cotton string, inside the rabbit. This swells up when wet, helping seal the seam. It'll be found at the very bottom of the rabbit.

    If it was me, I'd pull all the fasteners on the garboard and wedge it open to have a look see, to inspect the condition of the rabbit, the string or sealant and signs of rot, etc. It's a common area for issues, particularly in the forefoot and base of the stem. The boat has to be well supported for this, but it's not as much trouble as it sounds.

    Once it's open, the seams can be cleaned out and now you have the option of using polysulfide or just putting new string back in. A solid wood to wood interface is necessary for a tight boat. If the planking or rabbit are damaged, then polysulfide can help fill in a lot of the "waviness" and make a tight seal.

    You could have a shot at pulling nails, drilling for screws, then screwing the garboard down. I hesitate at this thought, because the once a garboard seam opens, even a little, all the junk in the bilge flows through it, leaving the inside of the rabbit filled with sand, dirt, leaves, bugs, sea creatures and that little eye glasses screw driver you couldn't find last summer. You be amazed what can manage to find it's way into a rabbit seam.

    Also check for cracked frames alone the turn of the bilge in the aft portions of the frames. These will appear as "kinks" in the frames most of the time, even if no crack is visible. The frames where a smooth continuous curve from keel to rail when installed. Any kinks or abrupt changes in the curves, indicate a cracked or broken frame.
     
  9. Landlubber
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    Landlubber Senior Member

    Yeah, as PAR says, but also use either Monel or Silicon Bronze screws
     
  10. steveroo
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    steveroo Junior Member

    re: fasteners

    WOW!! You guys are the Best!! Thanx to all for the fund of info and suggestions...PAR..man I wish I had room in this ol head for a third of your data bank...as usual you have provided the in depth information neccessary to make choices in a positive manner, and enough information that once the repair is done I can rest easy knowing I did it right...the 1st time...I will keep posting as I get the work done, and let you know what I find, and of course get a few pix in as they have obviously attracted comments from trained eyes.
     
  11. Landlubber
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    Landlubber Senior Member

    steveroo, PAR has forgotten most of what we would like to know.

    I often read his comments on all sorts of things, he is never wrong, we may not always agree with his methods, but he is still correct in what he says, much like Nigel Calder is in his book, Boatowners Mechanical and Electrical Manual.

    It is nice to have confidence in what some people recommend, much of what is written in this site is total crap unfortunately.
     
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  12. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Damn it would nice if I was never wrong.
     
  13. steveroo
    Joined: Dec 2008
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    steveroo Junior Member

    fasteners and fun

    Funny I never thought of myself so much as wrong..but much like a joke that goes from person to person..it's all about the "translation"!!! PAR if ya ever find yourself in Portland it'd be my pleasure to wrangle up a great dinner and your comsumptive beverage of choice. Surely your help has saved me enough searchingand buying stuff I DON'T need, to be able to have a continous supply of cold ones on hand for the less mentally demanding work ahead. Dinghy building is on the near horizon..stay tuned for more lunacy.
     
  14. PAR
    Joined: Nov 2003
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    Sweet Lord, it's in the low 80's, no humidity, sunny and a gentle breeze out right now. Why would I surrender this to be in Portland? Our winter has ended about two weeks ago and this is a time of year that we all live for. Warm days, cool nights and the bugs haven't hatched yet.

    I do have a launching of one of my designs in Seattle, I'm supposed to attend at summer's end. If I make it up there (don't hold your breath), I'll give you a call.
     

  15. ancient kayaker
    Joined: Aug 2006
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    Location: Alliston, Ontario, Canada

    ancient kayaker aka Terry Haines

    Oh! Frabjous Joy! The thermometer reached freezing temperature today. Yes, it finally got that high. The snow in the front yard is down to a mere foot deep, I can actually see grass at back although it's an unhealthy, matted, pale straw in color. The pool had a few damp spots on it a couple of days back, although it is frozen solid again today. Ah, yes, Spring is in the air!
     
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