Evolvement of foiling sailboats over the last 70 years

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Angélique, Feb 4, 2019.

  1. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    DSS is an invention by Hugh Welbourn and has resulted in at least two relatively new types of foil:
    1) Foil assist DSS- used mainly on monohulls the foil extends from a more or less horizontal trunk to create vertical lift w/o lateral resistance. Most other lifting foils create both vertical lift and horizontal lift for lateral resistance. The vertical lift component is substantially to leeward of the boat which also adds tremendous righting moment to the boat. This system is not used for full flying, only for foil assist.
    ----picture by Baltic Yachts
    DSS Baltic 142 29'.jpg

    2) Full Flying DSS- this version of DSS, which is also covered by the Welbourn patent, was first used on the Quant 23, the worlds first foiling keelboat. In addition to the advantages of "normal" DSS these foils are coupled with a rudder T-foil and allow the whole boat to fly.
    In addition to providing vertical lift thru the "normal" action of a surface piercing foil this type foil can also generate vertical lift as a planing surface-sufficient to lift 80+% of the boat.
    ----render by Quant Boats/ Hugh Welbourn
    DSS- frm hugh.jpg

    ----picture by Quant Boats
    Quant 23 flying - Copy.jpg

    Full flying version of a DSS foil operating as a planing surface:
    ----picture by Quant boats
    Quant 23-planing foil.JPG
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  2. tlouth7
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    tlouth7 Junior Member

    In defense of TANSL I believe that he was initially trying to make the point that the foiling "revolution" that is ongoing in sailing is built upon more advancements than just design of foils (that is to say, profiled underwater spans). I think we can all agree with that sentiment, even if not with the way it has been expressed in some cases.

    Personally I see three areas that have allowed foiling to spread so far so fast:
    1. Materials. These allow lighter boats, and stiffer, thinner spans. Also probably facilitate moving parts e.g. very thin pushrods activating trimtabs
    2. CFD. The application of proper analysis to this problem has brought in 3D, curved profiles
    3. Control systems. The biggest difference from those early attempts shown further up the thread is the move away from surface piercing foils as a away of controlling ride height. First we had wands as per the Moths, and then UpTip foils.

    With reference to surface piercing foils, have there been any novel designs for fully flying vessels that rely on them since Hydroptere (WR in 2009)?
     
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  3. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Variation on a Theme: the IMOCA Foils-- these foils, developed by VPLP and Guillaume Verdier, have the same advantages as foil assist DSS with an additional component that allows them to also develop lateral resistance(unlike DSS). They can lift around 60 to 80+% of the boats weight and generate huge RM.
    These boats could relatively simply become full flying , not just foil assist, by the addition of rudder T-foils which are currently against the rules.

    IMOCA Lift.jpg

    CharalDefiAzimut2018byYvanZedda_52.jpg
     
  4. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ============================
    Technically, all DSS foils are surface piercing foils that control ride height by speed. Some variations on UptiP foils use the principle behind surface piercing "V" foils as a back-up for the altitude control provided by the main ingredient of the UptiP foil--leeway coupling.
    GC32 setting a class speed record with exposed foil tip:
    GC32record2014.jpg
     
  5. revintage
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    revintage Senior Member

    Hi tlouth7 ,
    Would you agree the UpTip foil can be seen upon, as a version of the wave piercing V-foil as soon as the tip is above the surface? Made possible with the use of newly available materials.
     
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  6. OzFred
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    OzFred Senior Member

    To a large extent, yes. The early V configurations were simpler to make and the geometry gives strength, which suited the materials better (and are still being used). The F50 has gone more toward a C or Z configuration using precise semi–automated hydraulic control of the foil for height control rather than surface piercing effects or "uptippedness".
     
  7. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

  8. trip the light fandango
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    trip the light fandango Senior Member

    This is just rubbish, Should I send a video of a 1932 Bugatti? or a blown Mercedes?. Your venom and Dougs' occasional appropriation of Corporate hype videos with the booming menacing voices and April fools jokes with no disclaimer don't belong here Angelique, try the misogynists on sailing anarchy, they love this stuff and often lose valuable contributors with juvenile insipid spite.. You both offer really valuable insight into many aspects of boat design etc, but this vindictive tripe demeans you. You shirk the point seemingly because your fuming, chill. How to stop these craft from wiping out is the logical step in evolution ,not inane semantic waffle over origin.
     
  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ===============================
    I, of course, disagree with that characterization of any video that I posted ever. I try to post stuff that people will be interested in as well as stuff that may help people to learn about new technology.
     
  10. trip the light fandango
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    trip the light fandango Senior Member

    I should apologise publicly there Doug, I was under the impression that you also thought the Amazon foiling tri was fake, I find it so amazing I'm sceptical and as OZ Fred pointed out, that can't be the mouth of the Amazon,. that clean...can it?. I find the concept mind boggling, then so is much of nature,..?
     
  11. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    About post #38, you've quoted about the mid of my sentence, and not even from comma to comma, I think the full sentence will better explain what I've meant there, even adding the part ‘‘so to think’’ before your quote might help to explain what I've meant with that part from comma to comma, if not then I've to skip this light fandango.

    I'm just responsible for what I write, you're responsible for that out of context quoting, but don't worry there's no law against that, it's just a matter of decency not to do so.

    Regards . . :)
     
  12. trip the light fandango
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    trip the light fandango Senior Member

    Point taken ,but I did address what was grinding my gears specifically, which didn't necessarily require a complete quote I didn't think, anyway, back to more interesting stuff eh, regards
     
  13. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ==============================
    Apology accepted-thanks.
     
  14. Angélique
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    Angélique aka Angel (only by name)

    Re post #38, above I've quoted the valuable part for me, thanks for the start, about the latter part, point taken. I'll try to remember and to do better, thanks for speaking out, kudos for that . . :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2019

  15. OzFred
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    OzFred Senior Member

    No they aren't. The patented foil is installed below the waterline and deployed to leeward, making it fully submerged.
     
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