Evolvement of foiling sailboats over the last 70 years

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by Angélique, Feb 4, 2019.

  1. OzFred
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    OzFred Senior Member

    As long as the wave is big enough, and going in the right direction, and you have enough power to get up to foiling speed, and it's scalable to a 10m or 20m craft. :)
     
  2. Doug Lord
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    Last edited: Mar 1, 2019
  3. OzFred
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    OzFred Senior Member

    I wish you would stop reposting material that you've already posted many times in other threads. By all means post a link to it elsewhere, but don't fill threads with the same old content. Without any comments to add to the discussion it's just decoration.

    The F101 is a refinement of 20 year old foiling concept that has been applied to a number of other boats, including the Glide Free system. It confirms the notion that foiling systems themselves have evolved slowly and incrementally over decades and that the increase in the variety of foilers is mostly due to the lower cost of the high–tech materials required to manufacture them in sustainable quantities.

    It seems to be based on a Moth with outriggers so as to make the boat easier to learn, using a wand system based on the one used used for the WindRider Rave (and a number of other products subsequently).

    The most recent innovative feature is the J foil configuration developed by ETNZ (approaching 10 years ago). But that is now evolving to an L foil with active control. I though the J foil development was interesting and significant as it has the potential to greatly simplify foiling systems, however the shift in focus to L and flapped T foils has put the emphasis on external systems for altitude control. That, to me, is a backward step if the goal is to have a simple and effective foiling system. It does show however that J foils are fundamentally slower than other types and are avoided where performance has a higher priority than simplicity (and possibly practicality, but that's moot).
     
  4. trip the light fandango
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    trip the light fandango Senior Member

    It almost be like an albatross gliding along a face out at sea, the foil being the training wheels ..ha. ..10 to 20 metres. wow. a computer running the live wave model and correcting for direction and pulling in to the power source constantly, hooked up to wave bouys and gps and scanning for the next fresh wave/drive point in the vicinity.. exciting times really. Or just a skipper who is doing exactly the same thing by tuning in to his surroundings and feeling his way, with his head, gut and knowledge. The lighter the craft the smaller the wave required to transport I suppose. cheers
     
  5. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    As Fred noted, it's old news - that's a 2016 piece.

    It's interesting to see how values have changed since sailing was growing. The 101 guys say that they want to introduce as many people as possible to foiling - but the boat is, inflation adjusted, thousands more than the most expensive singlehander (the IC) of the mid '60s when dinghy sailing was booming. The boat costs 75% of the average annual income of adults from its homeland. The highest sail number I can see is 15. The manufacturer has demo boats in stock, so it's likely that fewer than 15 have been sold in two years despite solid marketing and a press who are only too happy to promote small boat sailing as an unaffordable, elitist pastime.

    However, one has to thank Doug for bringing up the 101 once again, because on reading the site it seems that even now and on a hyper-expensive boat, many people can only foil on a reach.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
  6. Doug Lord
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    Evolvement of Foiling Sailboats---Foil systems:

    ---------------------------------------------------
    The wand altitude control system used on the F101 is not based on the Moth,Glide Free or the "Windrider Rave", it was designed by Ron Price and saw its first use just a few years ago on the Whisper Catamaran. The Rave wand altitude control system was designed by Dr. Sam Bradfield and used on the Rave, Osprey and SKAT(the largest wand based foiler yet at 40'LOA) as well as a version being used on the F3 ,the worlds first production RC foiling trimaran, the Fire Arrow Test Model and the 14.8' WOLF foiling trimaran under development.
    --------------
    The "J" foils were not invented by Team New Zealand-the foils used on the Hobie Trifoiler were sometimes called "J" foils. Team New Zealand invented the "uptip" foil that is one of the most significant foil developments in history because it can be designed to automatically maintain the flight altitude of the hull it is attached to with no moving parts and little to no adjustment.
    It was not only used in the Americas Cup but on many beach cats and larger boats such as the G4 and others. It is remarkable that many people, who should know better, continue to call uptip foils by various letters of the alphabet rather than by the name given them by their inventors*. Uptip foils on trimarans were first used on the Fire Arrow Test Model and have since been adapted to large trimarans in the last four years. They are used exclusively for ama lifting foils on every 100' ULTIM trimaran built recently including Gitana 17, Macif and Banque Populaire.
    "L" foils are used on the converted MOD 70 Maserati but they are installed at an angle so that they work like uptip foils when moving thru the water.

    *Uptip Foils:
    Link to Part 1 and Part 2: America's Cup 2007 2010 2013 - Feature Articles Index - From Cupinfo.com http://www.cupinfo.com/en/featuresindex.php

    Quote from the article,Part 1:

    When we were working on the rule, we knew you wanted to get as much lift as possible when you were going fast downwind,” Melvin says. "For instance, in the 2010 America’s Cup, sailed on giant multihulls, the maximum amount of lift we thought we could get was about 50% of the weight of the boat. At that time, we were still relying on the hull to provide pitch control, so what’s come out of this is the boats all now have elevators (the horizontal foils on the rudders).

    At Team New Zealand, we developed a new type of foil that allows you to keep your height above the water more or less steady. No one had been able to do that before, at least not on a course-racing boat that was not going downwind. We developed that mostly on our SL33 test boats -- they came with the stock constant curvature “C” foils and with those kinds of foils, you can generate 50% boat weight lift before they get unstable. But we noticed that when we could get one boat up fully foiling for a few seconds it would really accelerate away from the other boat – and that got the wheels turning. How, with such a huge potential benefit, can we achieve stable flight downwind? So our design team came up with the “up-tip” type of boards. We refined those on the 33s and our 72 is designed to do that and fortunately it worked right of the box.”
    ====================

    Rave planing wand system(designed by Dr. Sam Bradfield) :
    Rave planing wand.jpg


    Whisper/F101 wand system(designed by Ron Price) :
    WhisperFoiler_02 wand vertical.jpg

    Osprey wand altitude control system(also designed by Dr. Sam Bradfield) :

    OSPREY 9-16-11 non-sailing 002 - Copy.JPG
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2019
  7. Doug Lord
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  8. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    It's not "new"; it was on display at the Dinghy Show over two years ago. Why such a misleading title, when you were were quite aware it is not a new boat?

    The price is almost a year's median household income in the USA (without considering shipping from the UK, taxes etc) and about 18 months salary for the average Brit. I also note that according to the Moth class reports to World Sailing, Moth prices adjusted for inflation and against the Laser have increased by 50% since the early days of foiling. So small boat foiling started off with a 4,000-5,000 pound Moth and has moved to dramatically more expensive craft like the 37,500 British pound Flying Mantis, the 18,000 pound Moth, etc. While the UFO and Waszp are fine examples of efficient engineering and design that reduces cost, they are still more expensive than a Laser, for example.

    Thanks again, Doug, for giving us reasons to see that while foiling is fantastic, there are good reasons why only a tiny minority of sailors foil and why it will, like many other types of craft, remain only a minority interest.

    What is concerning is the amount of hype about these hyper-expensive craft which are dramatically unobtainable to the average small boat sailor. We know for a fact that the two biggest surveys of the perception of sailing said that the biggest problems were lack of accessibility. A craft that costs more than the average person in a wealthy country brings home in a year is not "accessible" by any means - and yet these are the craft that are getting a lot of publicity within the sport and the lack of affordability is often ignored.

    To see how much things have changed, back in the dinghy boom days the FD, International Canoe and Int 14 were very often referred to as very expensive boats. The most expensive boat in my 1964 list, a new Int 14, cost 75% of the average British wage. The most expensive singlehander, the Int Canoe, cost 56%. The FD was in between. The Moth was 18% of the average wage, the 14th most popular class in the world, and growing at a rate of 500 per year. A 16ft 6in Shearwater catamaran cost less than six months wages. The highest-profile singlehander, the Finn, cost half a year's wages. The fastest growing singlehander, the OK, cost about 20% of a year's wages.

    Today, the Flying Mantis is about 140% the average British salary, or well over twice the most expensive singlehander of the dinghy boom era. The 101 and Moth are 2/3 the average salary, the Waszp a reasonable 1/3 and the Laser, for comparison, 1/5th. The Flying Phantom Elite is 150% of the average British salary. The UFO is only about 15% more expensive than a Laser, I think, but apparently much slower in the conditions most people normally sail in.

    The huge jump at the expensive end of the market may well indicate how out of touch the dinghy sailing world has become. The trend is for too much of the hype and publicity to be going on types that the typical sailor and typical non-sailor cannot afford, despite the fact that affordability and accessibility are known to be the biggest marketing problems the sport faces. No wonder the current indicia of boat sales and championship attendances in many areas are currently dropping dramatically. We asked the public what they want and then a minority took much of the public face of the sport in the opposite direction.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2019
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  9. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Evolvement of Foiling Sailboats: MOTHquito--- this boat is under development and a brand new take on a foiling cat with an innovative foil system. I don't much like the hull but it may work just fine. The foil system is pretty neat!
    https://www.mothquito.com/

    More on the Foiling System: IFS SYSTEM | IFS Increased Foiling System https://www.ifsfoiling.com/


    The IIFS Foiling company enters into the flying boats nautical market with an innovative project that provides new systems and solutions to the high performance sail foiling world, thanks to a studied design developed specifically for foiling,thanks to IFS patented system (Increased Foiling System), that is the result of a hard work of I+D that will see its first application in the Mothquito, a concept which was born in 2015 and that it is currently in the manufacturing phase of its first unit with an eye on its first sea tests.

    The Mothquito, which is the name in honor of the pioneers minifoilers, the MOTH International, for their close relationship in terms of size and appearance, is a high performance flying catamaran one-design with an innovative design and full carbon construction, which it's also able to increase its stability and dynamic performance thanks to the IFS system, a system that increases its dynamics length and beam, to achieve a significant increase righting moment (reducing heeling) and a decrease in pitch-pole risk, which in turn enables to oversize its sail area equating to benefits boats of greater length, but with less weight, which promises high speeds, with the maximum control and safety.

    In short, it's a surprising foiling catamaran, fast and easy foiling to handle for any sailor regardless of their physical shape or technical knowledge, even for those who thought flying would be impossible for them.

    Seeing this boat, with their long V-foils facing outwards, the extension arms of their T-foils rudder protruding from the stern and wings as standard for hike out replacing the classic trapezes, then, the vision of a mosquito comes to mind, hence his designer Toni Blanc has baptised it with the name of Mothquito.

    Mothquito.jpg
     
  10. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    Not a new concept. It was supposed to have been tested by now but they've been very quiet about the results. My bet is that it didn't work properly.

    This does, though, underline what really annoys some of us about the foiling hype (note I said the hype, not the boats themselves). The Mothquito guys have been out boasting, bragging and making outrageous claims that their foiler design is better and that foils are as important to boats as wheels are to transport. To people from many places, anyone who makes that sort of claim with no proof is simply being a loudmouth. What ever happened to actually quietly going out and doing stuff before telling everyone how wonderful you and your ideas are?

    But thanks yet again, Doug, for highlighting how many people are out there making empty boasts about foiling that they don't back up.
     
  11. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    By the way, Doug, why don't you just go out and buy a UFO or Waszp? After all, you're probably pretty close to the norm in terms of demographics among sailors and you're a foiling fanatic.

    If it's so great, why don't you do it?
     
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  12. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

  13. revintage
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    revintage Senior Member


  14. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

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