Everglades Challenge: the Right Boat?

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Mar 5, 2016.

  1. rapscallion
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    rapscallion Senior Member

    Corley,
    I couldn't agree more with your statement. My point is that we have seen videos of both small and large trimarans with J foils, and C foils - and that IF the J foils provided a clear and significant advantage, I suspect they would have been implemented in racing designs by now. Having said that I also openly concede this perspective is pure conjecture.
     
  2. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Raps I assume by "J" foils you mean UptiP foils-the same type invented by TNZ for 34? If so then they are being used on a boat called the Extrem (Exocet)19
    which is being built in France and Gitana tested one on a Mod 70. I wouldn't be surprised to see them on the new Ultime Gitana and Macif.
    They're the perfect ama foil with intrinsic altitude control.
     
  3. Skyak
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    Skyak Senior Member

    The conversation is focused too much on lift and drag and too little on stability. For the EC and all long point to point races you can't expect the crew to constantly 'fly' a boat that makes no concession to stability.

    For the EC, going with a foiler at all is very aggressive. Read some of the past stories and you will find quite a few crashes, many into large living creatures, some resulting in a total loss of vessels that were much sturdier than what you are considering and were going much slower at impact. I don't think it is realistic to think a two man boat could make it through the EC on only two foils.
     
  4. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Two foils?!--See post 60, page 4. It seems you may have missed a good part of the conversation. One of the main reasons to use the Fire Arrow platform is because of its very great stability with or without Q 23 foils. In fact, there is no trimaran under 20' anywhere that I know of with as much stability- dynamic and/or static- except possibly the Osprey.
     
  5. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Doug, you repeatedly post that image of your red foiler when it momentarily flew for a few seconds; how many times, untold numbers? But in reality your red firebrand wallows and wobbles along dragging deeply all foils. It is a slow joke. And now you are rabbiting on about entering the EC with a larger firebreather version, sailing serenely the shallows of the Florida Keys?
    My point: Randy has no vertical lifting foils on SewSew; one dagger, one rudder and planing floats, that is all, very KISS - and he is a past winner and an expert. Now you're going to launch your red inverted porcupine and speed away smugly flying above the water surface ... in your dreams. That is okay, dreams I mean, but reality is a different scene.
     
  6. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    EC Foiler Tri

    What a load of rubbish ,Gary.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Which he broke!
     
  8. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    So what? Oracle broke their main foil --and then whuped Team New Zealand!!
    The point is he was using a rudder T foil....and you said he wasn't.
     
  9. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    You are correct. I've been preoccupied with other things and posting too rapidly on the net.
    However a T rudder is also a very common basic now on mono and multihulls - and there is a large difference between an end plate so as to reduce blade depth yet still retain good steering on a rudder, compared to the multiple, complicated and fussy lifting foil designs all over and under your red model platform. Which if full size for the shallow waters of the EC, is just damage waiting to happen.
     
  10. Steve Clark
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    Steve Clark Charged Particle

    Just for giggles:
    A little doodle of something a friend and I are thinking about.
    He has an old I-14 rig and a bunch of 505 parts. Grew up sailing 110s.
    View attachment Rocky Mt. Lightweight Sharpie n.pdf
    Rocky Mountain Lightweight Sharpie.
    Long, very simple hull, sailed by 2 or three people with two on trapezes.
    Proposed build would be 3 &6 mm plywood and pink insulation foam.
    If kept light, it would row very well with two pulling sweeps.
    Might want to find a way to get the rig down if you were going to take the short way across Florida bay in a head wind.
    SHC
     
  11. rberrey
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    rberrey Senior Member

    Steve a trimaran , or cat version of a core sound 20 would be a good goal to shoot for . Doug , I don't think it is very hard to set up a go fund me account . If the designed foils don't work , then replace them with others , you wont really know until you build it . In the end if there is no wind it will come down to pole or paddle .
     
  12. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    EC Foiler Tri/Fire Arrow-the right boat!

    Thanks Mr.Berrey-I'll see how it goes. Definitely going with the Fire Arrow and not a new design or the Q 23. I think the Q 23 is a great boat and with some mods would be excellent for the EC but I've done too much development and work on the Fire Arrow to let it go now. Lots of problems to solve but the boat has tremendous potential.
    ---
    UPDATE-3/11/16--It's been pointed out to me that I might be able to do it in a Q23-which is a well sorted boat-and then do it in the Fire Arrow which is highly experimental....Makes sense and worth thinking about.
     
  13. Skyak
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    Skyak Senior Member

    A light, fast, cheap boat that uses parts you have laying around? That fits the bill! Looking at the drawings I get the feeling that you would be better off limiting your plan to 2 strong excellent sailors. The hull seems to be stretched for the third man. I think you could shorten it a few feet. You likely would not miss the extra waterline sailing because you would be in planing trim and you sure wouldn't miss the weight and wetted area while rowing.

    For the sake of argument (and bringing the biggest gun to the knife fight) I nominate the Farrier F-85SR -28 by 20 trimaran, 1600 pounds, 41ft mast, 516sf SA upwind. It's a bit rare but there are lots of old Fboat racers out there -quite a few in carbon. What would stop one of these boats from dominating in comfort?
     
  14. CT249
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    CT249 Senior Member

    Skyak, as guys like Julian Bethwaite say, even in very high performance dinghies extra waterline is extra speed.

    Have you tried sailing high performance three-handed dinghies? They really make life easy in many ways, compared to two-person boats.

    Steve's design looks like it will rock. The concept of comparatively modest sail area on a long, skinny hull creates excellent all-round speed and makes for a much more seaworthy package than something shorter.
     

  15. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Spawn-EC 2016 winner

    Spawn is a TB22 designed by OH Rodgers around 500lb +550lb crew:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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