Everglades Challenge: the Right Boat?

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Mar 5, 2016.

  1. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    Doug would be tender consumption I would have thought, sitting around his computer or his model table all day.
    The Maori gourmets of the tribe considered the left hand thumb palm to be the choice food area - that is if you
    are right handed ... but not if covered with dry epoxy and red paint?
    Sorry to be pedantic, Wayne but it is pukeko. Which is the New Zealand swamp hen. I've never eaten one but they say you have to pull all the sinews out after cooking, otherwise it s like eating rubber (gumboots?)
     
  2. Skyak
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    Skyak Senior Member

    I am reverting back to the OP to make a few points

    #1 the EC is NOT a race. The EC was conceived by Kruger kayak producers to showcase what a good balanced human/nature powered craft can accomplish. Safety, community (working together to get EVERYONE through safely), and environmental respect (leave no trace, carry out what you carry in) have ALWAYS been the measures of a successful entry.

    I know that in any gathering of boats there will always be a competition to finish first and I recognize that this is a great test of designs in a real challenging environment. I also appreciate the open nature of this competition as a place for development and for obsolete racers from sailing classes to show value. But I think it is a horrendous mistake to ignore the purpose and spirit of the challenge by entering craft that have a high probability of failure for the vainglory of beating hundreds of participants that are not racing and ARE contributing. In this light I suggest the following for this thread
    -consider the DNFs with equal weight to the 'winners' first to finish.
    -teams that don't arrive with all that they left with (parts broken off to become pollution) considered disqualified.
    -requiring outside assistance that can not be provided by participants is a design failure DQ
    -failure to provide assistance...should be discouraged somehow.

    By Watertribe standards Randy S. (Olympic medalist) has ~ 50% success/failure history! (bottom of the pack)

    #2 there are other classes and human power abilities are very important. In wide open classes like these the real accomplishment is not a placement or a time, it's who and what you did better than. There is more competition in the 1-3 classes than in 4 & 5.

    For the purpose of this tread are we ignoring classes other than 4 and 5?

    #3 The obvious trend in this thread is to favor the biggest fastest sailboat that you can push off the beach. But even if you win, what did you accomplish? Beating a field of a dozen or so serious sailboats to sail 300 miles? My point is that there are many greater sailing accomplishments and in the EC all the glory is provided by the competition. Nobody will care that you brought the biggest gun to a knife fight.

    #4 The skippers abilities (athletic and technique) are a huge consideration to this question. We should specify WHO we are recommending the design for (ourselves? or Doug?) along with the design. The best boat for Steve is completely wrong for Doug.

    So with these points in mind my recommendation for Doug for class 4 would be Mead Gougan's sailing canoe -very mild trimaran. The reason I recommend it is it is completely within his abilities to complete the challenge safely and quickly as opposed to losing another year dreaming of some rocket. The sail is not that far from your oversize RC boats and you could get moving on that ballast shifting rig if you felt the boat was too tame. If I recall you already have some DSS foils that would fit.

    For class 5 the CS 20 is the proven performer but there are certainly far more aggressive designs for speed. Two large athletic men could probably push a 30ft winged skiff off the beach. We are nowhere near the limits of how big and crazy a sailboat could be. As such I consider class 5 the LEAST interesting and likely to be dominated by obsolete grand prix boats. The big development is mast stepping.

    The one interesting development path would be moustache foils for the EC. Shallow draft, easier to manage than full foilers, downwind preference -could be the right tech. And I would also give serious thought to kite power. For my own efforts I would like to finish the challenge and maybe win each class in a boat of my own design that I could check as luggage on the plane.
     
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  3. pogo
    Joined: Mar 2010
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    pogo ingenious dilletante

    Yepp , i agree.
    Dinghis and skiffs have other shapes , ' cause they function with movable human ballast being positioned at the stern whhile planing on the aft section. Brutal raked masts, horizontal lift from genni . Those boats hardly heel !
    Those boats really plane .
    With sportsboats it's different. Normally -- when they move " fast" ---they move in half deplacement mode only.
    These french designs with chines try To sail in this mode on beam reaches ---with their chines , on their "plank" . As much area for dynamik lift as possible, very little rocker----half deplacement mode , even when heeled by their exzessive SA.
    Even WOXI , a narrow boat with little planing area , they gave more area for "planing" with the DSS.
    One has not to forget that those french sportstsboats have evolved from transatlantik racers, a race course with longer waves and swell. they are optimised for beam to broad reaches.
    In fact, in norther Europe, Baltic and Northsea with much more upwind courses and shorter courses they seldom win against Melges 24 and her " multi- purpose" collegues..
    In european forums we actually have a debate about those sexy "planing" boats like Pogos , Seascape 27 a. s. o. . The guys are impressed by their downwindspeeds. The guys wanna have cruisable planing , easy tackable , short handed cruisers for shorter distance recreational sailing on the baltic.
    Chined beamy boats are the wrong way for this.

    Each boat is a compromise.
    One has to buy the boat that one needs, not the boat that one wants.
    Realizing a boat's specification sheet is the first step.

    pogo

    P.S.
    We shoul stop this OT
    The guys here wanna talk about fast sailing , smaller , rowable , shallow draft inshore "toys".
    Another challenge .
     
  4. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    EC Foiler Tri

    DSS foils might work well on some boats but they and the so-called mustache foils are "foil assist" not full foiling. In addition, when so-called mustache foils are used they are deep and provide all the lateral resistance for the boat they are on-retracting them would be a disaster for the boat using them unless they also had a daggerboard/centerboard.
    The real gains in a design that is suitable and in the spirit of this Challenge(race) could potentially be made with Welbourns Quant 23 foils which are shallow draft both when foiling and not foiling. They are completely retractable and any boat designed to use them would be able to sail(or row) without them-they do not produce lateral resistance when foiling.
    I think one of the coolest challenges of this Challenge(race) is to develop a boat capable of foiling for the majority of the time even in light air and relatively shallow water while being able to retract the foils completely when necessary along with being able to row/paddle the boat.
    Winning the race(Challenge) overall mostly on foils would be a milestone in small boat design and development and one hell of a lot of fun win or lose.
    ---------------------
    NOTE: I personally am only interested in Class 5(maybe 4 too) and an overall race(Challenge) strategy but that does not mean the thread has to be limited to that!
    PS- The Core Sound 20 is a monohull and is ,therefore, Class 4........
     
  5. Steve Clark
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    Steve Clark Charged Particle

    I think a bunch of interest went out of the design aspect of the challenge when the first checkpoint was changed. This checkpoint was inland of a fixed bridge 10 feet wide and about 6 feet high. This mandated dropping whatever sailing rig you had and rowing or paddling about 1/2 a mile to the checkpoint.
    Randy's scissoring amas were designed to meet this filter. Without this filter there has been a shift to larger and more unwieldy sailing rigs, and no constraint on beam. A C Class catamaran would not fit through the bridge, but a Tornado will. Without the checkpoint, the C Class, which can be just as light as the Tornado, has every advantage, it's bigger and faster, just as easy to paddle.
    The hand propulsion portion of the program is also interesting, and not anything sailing boat designers think about these days. A Skiff like a 49er would be fine in the open water parts of the course, but would be miserable when you had to paddle or row it, which can be a significant part of the course.
    I think Skyak's points are all good. The goal is to perfect coastwise navigation in small boats, not simply to out daredevil each other. Part of the fun is thinking up better ways to make the trip in the 5 days allotted without making reservations at 4 suitable B&Bs and using the Gold Card. So some points should be awarded for style, comfort, clean teeth and a fresh shave.
    SHC
     
  6. pogo
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    pogo ingenious dilletante

    Very interesting info.
    Thanks !!

    pogo
     
  7. rberrey
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    rberrey Senior Member

    Gary,s boat being the free boat is at the top of the list so far , except he hasn't told us the shipping coat yet . Foils are fine if that,s what is wanted in the design , no reason a class 4 and 5 both can't be designed . The question is can we as forum members support a member design build project , and field a crew or two crews for the race ?
     
  8. Skyak
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    Skyak Senior Member

    I LOVE YOUR DIRECTION! Ultra light weight, but comfort and safety as well as speed. This really isn't a surprise. I recall an awesome presentation you gave one time (in the Netherlands I think) about how to improve sailing regattas (I recommend it often). The EC and adventure races in general have the opportunity to do what you said -the important point being that human power option addresses lack of wind and adds athletic challenge and achievement. It makes the wins more impressive to the general public (more to be proud of) and I think most people prefer to spend their leisure time with fit, better looking people. On the other hand it is also great fun for the skilled sailors to win sometimes against clearly fitter athletes. Nobody appreciates a sail more than someone who has paddled their boat great distances.

    I didn't know the low bridge obstacle had been removed. I prefer smaller designs limited by natural needs -water draft, air draft, launch ease, reefing ease...

    There used to be a northern sister to the EC on lake Michigan. I was thinking it is time to try again -maybe on green bay in door county. There are loads of B&Bs, bays, and islands. The shallows south of Washington island are known as "Deaths Door" so I was thinking "Sturgeon Bay to Deaths Door Challenge" has a nice ring. Georgian Bay would be another great destination as would the Apostle Islands (though these may lack comfortable accommodations).

    About the Hobbie island tris -they are the most popular stock design in the EC but have major weakness despite their heavy weight. Boomless is a mistake. The selfstanding mast is too weak. The mirage drives greatest accomplishment is utilizing the legs leaving both hands free to sail, but penguin flippers below the hull would be easy to improve upon with leg driven sculling oar. Any serious sailing design should allow moving crew weight the entire width of the boat.
     
  9. Skyak
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    Skyak Senior Member

    Doug, the idea with the mustach foil is that it does provide both righting and resist leeway -no daggerboard to add so it can run shallower -or that's the idea. The Quant needs it's keel. This really needs sketches and calculations to consider.

    I am surprised you are pushing Fire arrow and not that DSS skiff design you put aside a couple years ago.

    Class 4 or 5 -it has bee a while since I have read the rules. I only recall there being 4.

    There has been no mention of the lower classes so far but Nelo makes some awesome kayaks and Epic surf skis are popular. I prefer the Nelo for it's lower seat with greater stability/beam. It also has much better cargo handling and for a long haul in cold water I think the sit-in with skirt saves energy and is more comfortable. The only caveat is you must be able to roll upright. Obviously a wet exit would take longer to recover from than on a surf ski. As I said, I have not read the rules lately but a 1 SQM sail used to be allowed, no dagger or lee boards but paddles could be used to resist leeway -this is enough to be interesting to me.
     
  10. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    EC Trimaran Foiler

    I'm leaning toward something with the Fire Arrow main hull but utilizing the Quant 23 foils. Those foils are sort of like DSS foils that move up and down and are designed to allow the boat they're used on to fly-quite a bit different than standard DSS-where the boat doesn't fly. Their advantage, besides flying, is that they operate in relatively shallow water.
    This was before Steve mentioned that there is no "filter" for beam anymore-which makes the whole Fire Arrow concept viable even with a 22' beam and UptiP foils.
    Both types would work in relatively shallow water with an edge going to the boat with the Q23 foils. The foils are easily retractable and have 100% automatic altitude control.
    Those foils are the best I've seen for shallow water applications and, in my opinion, a flying boat, designed to be able to foil in light air(5kts) and be rowed/paddled is perfect for the EC Challenge(race) for all the reasons Steve mentioned.
    -----
    For a monohull(Class 4), the stock Quant 23 minus its keel would be almost perfect-the keel could be replaced with a centerboard.
    -
    There is a link to the definition of the EC Classes and rules in post 30,2nd page.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    You should set up a crowd funding project to get your boat built for the EC Doug. I'd throw in some cash to help you on the way to competing in it on one of your designs.
     
  12. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    EC Foiler Tri

    Thanks, Corely-I will consider that .
     
  13. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Sew Sew EC 2016

    This shot of Sew Sew was taken just after the start off Anna Maria Island(off Bradenton). From a design standpoint it's interesting to see how Randy sails with the boat "scissored" to get the lee ama forward.
    This was shot before the rudder broke....
    pix by "Publius Johnson"

    [​IMG]
     
  14. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Carbon Based Life Form

    Now I remember Sew Sew! I got there after the launch and did not see the boat as it was too swift. Maybe it is in one of the long shots on EC'16 thread.
     

  15. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

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