Everglades Challenge: the Right Boat?

Discussion in 'Multihulls' started by Doug Lord, Mar 5, 2016.

  1. Corley
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    Corley epoxy coated

    I'd go for a trimaran as lightly built as possible within reason with a centre cockpit/berth that you can sleep in and sufficient displacement to carry what you need. I'm a little intrigued by Kurt's 20' trimaran in this application convert it to a solo boat and use the extra weight carrying capacity for gear and supplies. I reckon you would have a good show of rowing or paddling it effectively if conditions were too light for sailing. The results over the years suggest that good sailing performance rather than rowing performance on average yields better results. It's too heavy to lift at 497lbs (225 kg's) however a carbon rig and beams would make it lighter, you could certainly push it over sandbanks or off beaches easily enough.

    http://multihulldesigns.com/designs_stock/daysail/20_tri.htm
     
  2. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    TB22 / EC Foiler Tri(Fire Arrow main hull+Welbourn foils)

    I noticed that when the Tampa Bay 22 launched they had 4 rollers 3-4' long and maybe 8" in diameter that one of the guys gathered up after the boat was floating. Maybe a requirement? Or maybe planning ahead.....
    UPDATE: Class 4&5: You may use rollers
    and kedge off the beach, but all equipment that you use must be carried with you for the entire event

    ----
    I think using Welbourns foils on the right boat is the way to go. They would have a very wide functional range both in terms of early takeoff(light air foiling) and draft and could allow real good speed for most of the distance.
     
  3. rberrey
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    rberrey Senior Member

    So Doug your saying Gary needs to redesign the 650 , and add a new larger hatch , Welbourn foils , and room to store 4 rollers . A light tri with enough room to sleep . This is a good start .
     
  4. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    EC: the right boat

    Mr. Berrey, I would not presume to suggest Gary needs to redesign anything.
    After all, he most generously suggested that he would send the boat to me.
     
  5. rberrey
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    rberrey Senior Member

    I'm a bit over 200 lbs Doug , do you think the two of us could sail on her ? In all seriousness , I would kick in a few 100 bucks for someone from our forum to design and build the boat , I bet others would too . A set of prints would cost that , not sure how much a plane ticket would cost for Gary , but he can watch it on U tube . All the younger folks have no problem with go fund me , that,s an option . I see no reason a boat could not be designed , built , and crewed by 2 forum members . I think there should be a hull design team , and a field design team to come up with what you would need to complete the challenge supply wise so you can factor in storage area .
     
  6. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    EC-the right boat?

    Well, I have a #1 priority that I need to complete-the Fire Arrow. However, it might be able to morph into an EC trimaran for one or two people. You can't just take any hull and stick foils on it-the whole thing has to be designed for the foils. And I think Welbourns foils are a perfect match for the EC and would give the boat designed for them a real good chance. I think that boat should be a trimaran but I think a "stock" Quant 23 w/o the deep keel could be a good boat
    for the challenge.
     
  7. CT 249
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    CT 249 Senior Member

    I'm not a designer but I have been lucky enough to talk to just about all of the top skiff designers and top NZ sportsboat designers like Young, Elliott and Thompson.

    The designers of fast dinghies and skiffs generally ditched the idea of designing for maximum planing area around close to 20 years ago, or even much earlier in some cases. It was found that using narrower waterlines, narrower sterns, and elliptical hull sections instead of flatter Vee sections was actually faster. The reduced wavemaking drag and wetted surface drag of the more modern hull more than compensates for the reduced dynamic lift caused by the reduction in planing area. The ultimate example, perhaps, is the move in Moths from wide scows, which have enormous planning area, to narrow canoe-sterned "pintail" skiffs just 1' wide.

    The Seascape 27 looks nice, but it's rated at about the same speed as a shorter Melges 24, which means it's not really any quicker than optimised versions of 1990s Kiwi designs like the Elliott 7.8. These boats were then themselves outmoded by the very slender sportsboats like the Thompson designs, which follow the move AWAY from developing "as much positive planing area as possible."

    Obviously the "Open" style is a very different style of design, but isn't it simply a case of being aimed at different conditions and types of sailing rather than being superior? And in dinghies and skiffs, which may be more like the EC style, the evidence is showing strongly that just about none of the top designers maximise planing surface any more.
     
  8. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    EC: the right boat?

    ==============================
    Congratulations to Team "Spawn"!!
     
  9. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    RBerrey, I'll have you know this is SERIOUS stuff. The foiler is not some dreamed-up-in-the-bath fantasy but is hard core reality ... and Doug and I of Team Serious will CLEAN up, crush the opposition; this is a given, goes without saying.
    Except I'm not enlarging the hatch.
    Also down below you squat as if toilet throned in narrow confines. Can you cope with this, Doug?
    Anyway here are three images of the EC Challenge 650 - the reality is REAL.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    Gc650

    That's what we need: a serious tri with a smiley face painted on the transom!
    Or maybe I've got that wrong......
     
  11. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    The intention of the transom art work is to represent a Maori warrior smiling as he caves your head in with a taiaha or patu. Then he cooks you in a hangi.
     
  12. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    I think this is the second time Randy Smyth has major rudder problems. I have to wonder why he continues to use a cassette instead of a kick up. Secondly I keep thinking of a kick up that is balanced in the up position (long rudder crane) so some stealing is possible even in shallow water.
     
  13. waynemarlow
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    waynemarlow Senior Member

    Gary wouldn't that be like the Pukeka story, put a rubber wellie boot and Doug into a pot, boil it for 5 hours, throw Doug away and eat the boot :)
     
  14. Steve Clark
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    Steve Clark Charged Particle

    One of the most interesting aspects of the Water Tribe boats is the ability to use manual propulsion in combination with sail. This can get very cool, and serious thought has to go into how the boat paddles and or rows. A little help to maintain apparent wind can really make things efficient when sailing just doesn't cut it anymore. The Hobie Adventure Island with the penguin drive is a very interesting concept for "motor sailing" and I have always wondered what a really nicely built ( light and stiff) version of one of those boats would be like.
    Oh no, I have an orphaned A Class hull out back.....
    SHC
     

  15. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    I had a hard time finding the "Classes" section of the rules-for those interested here it is: http://watertribe.com/PDF/MustRead/WaterTribeBoatClasses.pdf

    One rule stands out for Class 5:
    Non modified beach cats and tris are not allowed. What is a beach cat or tri? Any cat or trimaran that is sold without reefs in the main is a beach cat and is not allowed. By rerigging and modifying the sail(s) a beach cat or tri is more than welcome in this class.

    And for at least Class 4 &5 :
    e. Note that although we allow a crew of three as of 2016, only one or two may participate in the launch at the start of the event. The third
    crew member may sit in the boat during launch or may board the boat after it is in the water.


    And important for design considerations:
    Your boat must fit the spirit of the WaterTribe events. That means it is an expedition capable boat - not around-the-buoys boat. If there is any doubt, it is your responsibility to send pictures and specs to Chief prior to registering. If you get DQed on the beach, it will be your fault and you won't get a refund.
    All Class 4 & 5 boats must adhere to the reefing rule for sailboats(see below).
    [/B]

    Reefing Rule for Class 4 & 5:
    Reefing Rule for ALL Class 3, 4, 5, and 6 Boats: All sailing classes must have a safe and efficient reefing, furling, or recovery system for all sails. You must know how to use your reefing system and it must be fully rigged and ready to go before you launch. If there is a small craft advisory at the time of launch and you don't have all reefs in your sail, you will be immediately DQed.
    Reefing is highly recommended but not required for standing sails less than or equal to 12 sqft.
    At least one reef point is required for standing sails less than or equal to 36 sqft. Having two reef points is
    highly recommended for these sails.
    At least two reef points is required for any standing sail greater than 36 sqft.
    Instead of reef points, any standing sail can use roller reefing.
    All standing sails must have a dousing and retrieving system that can be safely and efficiently operated from the cockpit, deck or main trampoline.
    Headsails may use roller furling, roller reefing or dousing and retrieval systems that can be safely and efficiently operated from the cockpit, deck or main trampoline.
    Cruising spinnakers and screechers are allowed keeping in mind the roller reefing, roller furling and/or sail dousing and retrieving requirement for all headsails.
    All class 3, 4, and 5 WaterTribers must have "Reef Early and Reef Often" tattooed on their forehead. (Justkidding, but you get the idea.)
     
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