everglades challenge sailboat

[Gary Baigent]

Not everyone can win but everyone tries to beat the similar boat or crew - and that is a major part of the fun.

 

[upchurchmr]

To each his own. The Tornado and others seem to have met all your challanges. I beg your pardon for calling this a race. I'll probably never try this challange but if I did I would not be interested in going slow. The people who have sailed or even entered this "event" have my greatest admiration. But not some of the boats. There should be nothing wrong with sailing a quality boat, which you seem to dislike.

None of the qualities you extol prevent you from sailing a faster boat. Obviously the Olympic one-design Tornado meets your criteria for "Balanced" design since they repeatedly complete the course while others have not.

I don't actually see any difference in sailing a PD racer or a 49'er in this "event". They would both beat you up.

Wrong. You COULD enter the challenge with a Grand Prix 18. You could enter with a 49er. But this isn't a race. It never was intended to be a race. It is intended to be a challenge - with a variety of conditions (offshore crossing on the Gulf, ICW flatwater, wind & paddling), venues (swamp, riverine, coastal), a long time span (requiring alertness, stamina and good judgement), navigation and picking the right course and a sense of community, fun, co-operation and responsibility for those out there with you.

Some people may value speed around the course, but the real goal for most is the sharktooth necklace and the right to say "Completed".



It isn't a race, and safe participation really demands a balanced boat design. This challenge can and often does include bad conditions, no wind, too much wind, no water, too much water etc. Specialised race boats aren't balanced in their approach - they are meant to get around the cans faster. I sail trapeze skiffs - and I could not even think about one for this challenge. I'm wiped out after three or four hours sailing mine - I could not imagine sailing one for 24 hours or more.

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CutOnce

 

[Richard Woods]

I'd much prefer to sail a Tornado in the EC than some of the boats that tried to start

But unless I am wrong (please correct me if so) you have to get under a 8ft high, 10ft wide bridge (or sail an extra 10 miles minimum to get round it).

And to me that is the determining factor for the design. Not the beach ability, not the shallow draft. I'd really like to know how they did it on the Tornado, especially as it was a windy day.

It stops my Strike 18 trimaran from entering, which otherwise sounds a good option, never mind one of my trailable catamarans (and yes I have pushed my 25fter down a beach to the water)

If it isn't a "race" all the more reason to have party stops.

And to Cut Once. I bet the average kayaker would blanche at the thought of paddling for 18 hours a day for several days in heat and humidity never mind mosquitoes and alligators. Most are wiped out after 3-4 hours gentle paddling.

Just as you are in your skiff.

But people do it for the challenge and to see if they can

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

 

[Doug Lord]

Everglades Challenge

Wrong. You COULD enter the challenge with a Grand Prix 18. You could enter with a 49er. But this isn't a race. It never was intended to be a race. It is intended to be a challenge - with a variety of conditions (offshore crossing on the Gulf, ICW flatwater, wind & paddling), venues (swamp, riverine, coastal), a long time span (requiring alertness, stamina and good judgement), navigation and picking the right course and a sense of community, fun, co-operation and responsibility for those out there with you.

Some people may value speed around the course, but the real goal for most is the sharktooth necklace and the right to say "Completed".



[B]It isn't a race[/B], and safe participation really demands a balanced boat design. This challenge can and often does include bad conditions, no wind, too much wind, no water, too much water etc. Specialised race boats aren't balanced in their approach - they are meant to get around the cans faster. I sail trapeze skiffs - and I could not even think about one for this challenge. I'm wiped out after three or four hours sailing mine - I could not imagine sailing one for 24 hours or more.

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CutOnce

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No, "Once" I'm afraid you're the one thats wrong(at least about racing) :
This is from the current results page and describes what the Everglades Challenge is:

This Challenge is an expediton style adventure race for kayaks, canoes, and small sailboats. The time limit is 8 days but the winners will do it in 2 to 4 days. The distance is 260 to 300 miles depending on your course. This challenge is a qualifier for the Ultimate Florida Challenge.

This Challenge is in progress.

http://www.watertribe.com/Events/ChallengeResults.aspx?RaceID=EC2012
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The other things you said well, and are also true, but one of the coolest elements of this Challenge Race is that design is unlimited. Over time, I'm sure that new developments will be explored that allow high powered monohulls to participate within the stamina level of their crew. We ain't seen nothin yet in terms of what is possible. We've already seen extraordinary development in multihulls ,particularly with Randy Smythe's Scissors(Sew Sew?). The elements that make this a tough challenge are also elements that can refine small sailboat design in ways no other type of race can and the potential benefits for all sailors due to the design and building development for this race should not be underestimated.

 

[upchurchmr]

CutOnce,

Doug beat me to it:

You need to read the Watertribe website again.

"This Challenge is an expediton style adventure race for kayaks, canoes, and small sailboats. The time limit is 8 days but the winners will do it in 2 to 4 days. The distance is 260 to 300 miles depending on your course. This challenge is a qualifier for the Ultimate Florida Challenge."

Quoted from the Results page.


Richard,

I have to agree with you about the mast, an old Tornado aluminum mast weighs 60# and is 31' long. It would be really interesting to see if they dropped it to get under the bridge. No idea what a new composite mast would weigh but the 31' would still be difficult when you only have an 8' tramp to stand on.

 

[Gary Baigent]

I'm guessing because I don't know if the Tornado has a reacher sprit like the new versions - but that would definitely be useful in lowering/raising the rig. If not they could rig the main boom out front and use that.
In one Tornado Worlds here in Auckland, the Dutch crew lost a windward shroud and the mast went sideways to be not far from the water, before the crew on his trapeze locked himself somehow to the platform ... and just hauled it back upright. Everyone watching cheered.
Here is Sew Sew setup for bridges and channels.

 

[Richard Woods]

Two fit men could "walk up" a Tornado mast even in the water. I've lowered the 32ft mast on our Merlin by myself when afloat, but it took some time.

What I wouldn't be able to do though is to paddle the boat under a bridge and against wind/current with the mast down and sails, rigging etc in the way. Especially as I understand the bridge span is the same as the Tornado's beam. But obviously they did it, but I'd like to know how

And as mast raising is a major deal for all trailerable boats, monos or multis, racers or cruisers maybe the way they do it will help all sailors far more than some extreme hydrofoil (for example, nothing against it, just an example). And in that sense the race is a good one

In that respect you should check the East Coast Piers and Three Bridges races in the UK , both of which require crews to lower masts to get under bridges

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

 

[Doug Lord]

Two fit men could "walk up" a Tornado mast even in the water. I've lowered the 32ft mast on our Merlin by myself when afloat, but it took some time.

What I wouldn't be able to do though is to paddle the boat under a bridge and against wind/current with the mast down and sails, rigging etc in the way. Especially as I understand the bridge span is the same as the Tornado's beam. But obviously they did it, but I'd like to know how

And as mast raising is a major deal for all trailerable boats, monos or multis, racers or cruisers maybe the way they do it will help all sailors far more than some extreme hydrofoil (for example, nothing against it, just an example). And in that sense the race is a good oneIn that respect you should check the East Coast Piers and Three Bridges races in the UK , both of which require crews to lower masts to get under bridges

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

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I think mast raising and lowering systems and "extreme" hydrofoils(whatever they may be) are just a couple of elements in small boat design that can be used to win this race. All the elements of design for speed and convenience will come into play in design for a race like this(to one degree or another)-and that will benefit small boat sailors everywhere.
Mast raising and lowering systems for numbers of boats have been already tried and worked well for very high performance boats. To my knowledge no hydrofoils of any type have been used-most particularly DSS- which has the potential to benefit small monohulls in shallow water over much of the course.

 

[SteveMellet]

If I were sailing a Tornado, and faced with the choice of sailing an extra 10 miles (or even 15) versus lowering sails and dropping the mast, I`d pick the extra hour of sailing verus the 2 hours needed to drop the rig, paddle under a bridge in a headwind, and then re-rig the boat. I also know the longer sail would require less physical effort - and a Tornado can easily cover 10-15miles in an hour upwind, while the crew are fairly relaxed in trapeze harnesses. I think, if you ask them, they sailed around..

 

[Richard Woods]

Have a look at this video, especially the last 10 seconds and then comment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duGEolotq40

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

 

[Doug Lord]

Have a look at this video, especially the last 10 seconds and comment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duGEolotq40

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

==========================
Wow! That was realy cool! Gutsy as hell! Thanks Richard!

PS- if you were really good you might be able to pull that off with Frank Smoots tri system: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8kUq4BouS0
Thread here: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/multihulls/slickest-folder-ever-41318.html

 

[CutOnce]

This Challenge is an expediton style adventure race for kayaks, canoes, and small sailboats. The time limit is 8 days but the winners will do it in 2 to 4 days. The distance is 260 to 300 miles depending on your course. This challenge is a qualifier for the Ultimate Florida Challenge.

On this point I stand corrected. My apologies to all.

Over the years I've watched the EC evolve, I've come to conclude that only a few people/teams are "racing", while most are participating for the challenge, conceding before the start that shortest ET for their class is far out of reach.

Chief's promotion of the event historically has been more "challenge" and less "race". My interest in the event would drop significantly if it was more "race" and less "challenge". Oh well, might as well remove this event from the bucket list. I've got zero interest in a hyper-competitive, big money, carbon-encrusted event. Guess I'll have to take another look at the Texas 200 - seems more like "my" people.

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CutOnce

 

[Doug Lord]

Texas 200 Race

On this point I stand corrected. My apologies to all.

Over the years I've watched the EC evolve, I've come to conclude that only a few people/teams are "racing", while most are participating for the challenge, conceding before the start that shortest ET for their class is far out of reach.

Chief's promotion of the event historically has been more "challenge" and less "race". My interest in the event would drop significantly if it was more "race" and less "challenge". Oh well, might as well remove this event from the bucket list. I've got zero interest in a hyper-competitive, big money, carbon-encrusted event. Guess I'll have to take another look at the Texas 200 - seems more like "my" people.--
CutOnce

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Be careful-some of "your people" consider that, too, to be a race: http://www.storerboatplans.com/wp/design/second-prototype-raid41-joins-texas-200-mile-race/
I think you're a little hard on the whole concept-so what if some "carbon encrusted" boats race-they're many different classes in the EC and everybody can face their own personal challenge regardless if they win or not.
Winning is not everything especially in a Challenge Race.

 

[Gary Baigent]

CutOnce, earlier you were defending the Gougeons' i550, which has its below deck hull sheathed in carbon, a lot more carbon, and a lot more expense aboard that boat that any of the other competitors, I would guess.

 

[SteveMellet]

Have a look at this video, especially the last 10 seconds and then comment

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duGEolotq40

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

I don`t think you`d manage THAT with a spinnaker-rigged Tornado ! But very impressive.
I would think you would have to lower the mainsail before dropping the mast, as it`s fully battened ? The jib would also have to be removed to lower the mast.Then there is the continuous spinnaker halyard that isn`t normally long enough to drop the mast, without removing it from the head of the spinnaker, without it pulling the spinnaker out of the chute. I suppose that if doing this race on a Tornado,(or any beachcat) you`d figure out systems to alter the way the boat is rigged to enable quick raising & lowering the rig if it`s beneficial to your result..