everglades challenge sailboat

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by rapscallion, Mar 6, 2012.

  1. rob denney
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    rob denney Senior Member

    The "plan" is a rough sketch, with details on the tricky bits. I have sent it to you. The factory where we build the masts is 1,000 miles away. This is unfortunate as they have just got a filament winder and a 3 axis milling machine for moulds, both of which I would love to play with. The 15m is being built locally, by an excellent infuser with no sense of time.

    The EC proa wil be less than half the weight of Coach Dave's machine so will go faster. The cheap model aeroplane props make shallow water less of a problem.

    Correct. Works a treat. In fact, on my 25'ter, I only use the aft rudder, except at very low speeds.

    Very hard to know. There is no substitute for sail area, so the schooner looks good. Except in the light, when sail area up high sees much more wind. This is why I am playing with the telescoping rig. Definitely put 3 holes in your lee hull, but you will also need 3 rigs as halving the sail area from schooner to una will not tell you much.

    Understood.

    The tramp and whatever it is attached to needs to get narrower as the boat pantographs or folds. The solution for pantographing is to have the net mesh parallel to the beams, not 45 degrees. This makes beam reduction even easier than telescoping, and gives you more fore and aft rm downwind. It is also lighter, if you mount the beams against the masts.
    .........................................
    Using 2 piece masts (very easy if they are unstayed), they can be up to 30' long and the portage package still not exceed 18'. This means that A class cat sails could be used, which may save some money. Resulting boat (empty) would be 1.9 times the weight of an A, with twice the sail area, 1.7 times as long and 1.5 times as wide. Vs the Tornado, the proa is 50% longer, 20% wider, the same weight, 25% more upwind sail, 60% less downwind. The unstayed rigs will be less powerful, but more forgiving. The proa would be a lot easier to sail single handed than the T.

    rob
     

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  2. DIY Tri Guy
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    DIY Tri Guy Junior Member

    Randy says that when Sizzors broke, he lost an ama. He was out in the Gulf and a pretty good ways from land. He had to get back to land without ever letting the missing ama side get downwind -- no small challenge! [You can hear the whole interview with Randy (and lots of other multihull luminaries) on Joe Farinaccio's OutRig Media site, at
    http://outrigmedia.com/dap/login.php ]
     
  3. spidennis
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    spidennis Chief Sawdust Sweeper

    up close spy video of sizzors

     
  4. spidennis
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    spidennis Chief Sawdust Sweeper

    Rob,
    Is this the same construction method for the ec/ufc boat?
    btw, impressive build you got going on there!
    Im teaching myself woodstrip building right now,
    and I was going to move on to foam strip next but ....
    you make this method in the video look pretty easy!
    I'd have to modify my garage, been giving that a lot of thought.
    I got the length, just have to adapt a non load bearing wall into double swing doors.

     
  5. Dryfeet
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    Dryfeet Junior Member

    Rob, the attached pic of the una-rigged Elementarry is an absolutely beautiful boat. I'm okay with the shunting but a tad confused regarding the rudders. Your web article mentions using only one rudder (this sounds good to me) at a time but having to do a bit of skipping about to shift rudders during a shunt. Also some mention is made of steering with both at the same time.

    I'm a somewhat lazy sort of sailor so those aspects don't enthuse me. However, I'd sure like to know if you've got a lazy man's solution to the steering thing.....
     
  6. spidennis
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    spidennis Chief Sawdust Sweeper

    The fact that there's no leeboard or dagger board but uses the other rudder to me is a BIG bonus. If the front rudder is steerable that can make for some really quick and tight turns. I gather they'd have to be able to kick up in both directions? So I've seen the rudder mounted on the main hull and on the cross beams, not sure what i'd prefer, most likely on the main hull in my case.
     
  7. souljour2000
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    souljour2000 Senior Member

    I bet an old buccaneer 18 would do well in this event...I wish i still had that little daysailer...that was a fun boat...just big enuff and fast enuff to feel like you were one of the big boys...
     
  8. rapscallion
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    rapscallion Senior Member

    I think an easily paddled proa would do very well in the EC. I would think a boat smaller than robs elementary would be the way to go. I wonder why the rapter 16 never really dominated this race. It seems like a great boat for the job.
    I also really like frank smoots super slick folding tri. there is a great deal of potential there.
    I imagine a small folding tri, like franks, with amas shaped in such a way that when folded, the boat has a canoe hull shape that can be paddled with relative ease.
     
  9. DIY Tri Guy
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    DIY Tri Guy Junior Member

    Actually, my folding tri can be paddled quite easily with the amas open or closed. That was one of the original design considerations. And the main hull, at 22" wide, is much narrower than a typical canoe, which makes paddling all the easier.
    - Frank
     
  10. rapscallion
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    rapscallion Senior Member

    Wow, you may have the perfect UC boat!
     
  11. DIY Tri Guy
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    DIY Tri Guy Junior Member

    The EC (and its limitations) was actually the original motivation for this little tri. That's why it can be folded from the cockpit and the mast & sail raised and lowered from there.
    We live just 30 minutes from the start of the EC, and -- believe it or not -- my wife Laura wants to participate! Now I have to design a bigger 2-person boat, because no way am I letting her get out there alone!
    - Frank
     
  12. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Wood Butcher

    Best wishes, Frank. I hope we can follow the build here.
     
  13. DIY Tri Guy
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    DIY Tri Guy Junior Member

    I will definitely be sharing what I come up with if anybody wants to know about it. Right now I can't even settle on a length or basic hull shape. So many options...!
    - Frank
     
  14. spidennis
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    spidennis Chief Sawdust Sweeper

    this is from the A-cat build thread over in multis
    http://www.ah-sailing.blogspot.com/
    If you scroll on down you see a guy holding a hull ......
    now that's what I'm talking about ...... Lite!
    Looking like I got some boat building education ahead of me!
    but I still need to talk to the LoneStar Multihull guy ......
    I think I got enough models to represent what I'm shooting for.
    they're not building boats any more because of the economy
    so maybe he wants to get into a little side project?
    that would just be just a perfect plan!
     

  15. rob denney
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    rob denney Senior Member

    No. The EC boat method is simpler and lighter and does not need a full length table. It uses Rick's go fast hull shapes, cheap, quick to build mdf moulds and includes almost everything (bulkhead landings, hull join, mast step, deck bearing, hinges, beam sockets, rudder sockets and all the reinforcing these require) in the infusion. After the parts are infused, everything is glued together in matching male/female joins. The only fairing is a smear of bog in the tiny rebates at the joins. There is no secondary laminating apart from the 6" of foam/glass bows which are made off the job and glued on.

    After you have learnt the procedure with the first half hull, each half will take a couple of days. Of this time, only 40 minutes per infusion involves resin, and after the resin is mixed, you don't come in contact with it again until it is cured. Think of that when you are gluing strips, glassing them, filling and fairing them, then repeating the process on the other side. Assembling the halves, including installing the bulkheads is another day's work. A light sand and they are ready to paint.

    Infusion is like shunting and pedal propellor boats. Once you have done it in a well set up situation, you wonder why anyone does it any other way. Flat panels are a big step up from strip building. Utilising the full range of what can be done with infusion is an enormous saving of time, weight and money.

    Dryfeet,
    You can steer with two, but it sails faster with one. Can also lock either one and steer with the other. Bow one works better upwind, stern one down. The videos show a lot of mucking about raising and lowering rudders on boats that have not been optimised. Once they are, it is easy to do this from the windward hull, a little more difficult to make it semi automatic, but I am working on it. Definitely a lazy man's boat, or I would not be sailing it. ;-)

    Dennis,
    The rudders kick up in both directions and can be lifted and still steer. If the beams are far enough apart, beam hung rudders are simplest. If not, a stub beam closer to the ends on the lee hull is required. Using both rudders I steered one of my early 40'ters in a circle just bigger than it's own length at 7 knots. Anyone not holding on, fell down. They can also be used together to negate leeway, or crab sideways.

    Raps,
    Paddling is ok for getting under bridges, but if you want a human powered boat for long distances and/or high speeds, fit a set of pedals and a prop. Short boats may be easier to paddle, but won't sail (or pedal) as fast.

    Dennis,
    The A cat skin is light (6 oz cloth each side of 6mm foam is about 6-7 ounces per sq'), but it gets heavy when they fillet and tab the bulkheads, add all the reinforcing and join the two halves. An A cat rig weighs about 20 kgs/44 lbs. The beams and foils about the same. The total is 80kgs/176lbs, so you can see how much gets added to hold it all together. If they infused it, they could include much of this in the infusion and make the finished weight considerably lower. And reduce the build time significantly.

    6 oz cloth will not compete with oysters, rocks or even pebbles, so you will need to beef up the bottom, a lot. A similar boat to the EC proa, but for adventure sailing rather than racing has a 2mm solid glass bottom. I think it may be lighter and tougher if infused ply was used, but have not done any comparative tests.
     
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