everglades challenge sailboat

Discussion in 'Sailboats' started by rapscallion, Mar 6, 2012.

  1. rapscallion
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    rapscallion Senior Member

    The everglades challenge is again underway. I was wondering what the forum thought the ultimate everglades challenge sailboat would look like. I think we can all agree a multihull would be a very good choice, but what would the ultimate monohull look like?

    Is the EC22 the best design for the race?

    Would a long and slender decked over canoe be better?
    Like a 18 to 24 foot sailing canoe that can be sailed and paddled by one person be a better option? Perhaps equip it with a pedal drive?

    What do you folks think?
     
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  2. hoytedow
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    hoytedow Wood Butcher

    I liked the B&B tri that I saw on Saturday. They had some problems at the start but once they got going they are making good time. Check the watertribe tracking map. I also liked the canoe, which unfortunately became dis-masted due to a faulty starboard shroud connection. It parted at the eye at the deck end. The mast step was then peeled off the tabernacle as the mast went over the side.
     

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  3. CutOnce

    CutOnce Previous Member

    This is an incredibly tough event to define a boat for. It really depends on what happens with wind, sea state and weather. What is a great choice on year would probably be a loser the next. What can win on leg isn't going to be fastest in other legs.

    It really depends on what segment of the race you choose as your design focus as well. Crossing the Gulf far offshore (in possibly bad weather) defines a very different boat than noodling through shallow draft swamp canals and across obstacles & weed.

    The one common thread I've noticed on winning boats is that they are light, fast, 18-20 foot plus long and minimise the exposure time on the worst segments. Hence the speed domination of the multihulls, and the two handed boats where headway is made while one crew is resting.

    The beach launch criteria really shortens the list, but if Meade and Jan Goudgeon can drag an i550 down the beach, there are still lots of possibilities.

    If we are talking monohulls, Graham Byrnes EC22 is still very much a good balance of speed plus the capacity to handle rough offshore worst case conditions. The small cuddy and bunk, plus a porta potty means a two man crew can keep going the 48-36 hours non-stop needed. No concession to fixed ballast and unneeded weight is made, and with a big asym, downwind planing is very possible. The cat/ketch rig has lots of possible configurations and can adapt to a range of conditions.

    If conditions were perfect, a sloop rigged boat with higher aspect ratio main would have a higher top end speed potential, and the much taller mast would allow a lot more downwind sail area from an asymmetrical spinnaker/reacher. The taller rig would mean a whole lot more trouble sneaking under bridges though.

    I love this event and follow it every year from afar - wishing I could one day be involved.

    --
    CutOnce
     
  4. tom28571
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    tom28571 Senior Member

    Since I have been fairly close to the EC a couple times I have some thoughts. I did help build the EC22 and have sailed it a number of times. It does offer some creature comfort advantages that help the crew keep going. However sleeping during the race has not turned out to be as practical as thought although rest for the crew not steering is often possible. When in open ocean it is not usually prudent for one to sleep in the cabin and this would be true for any other similar design. When in very calm conditions, both are needed to keep the boat moving with oars. Still, the cabin is a good idea for those times when it can be used. I have slept in there a few times and it is just fine. Total sail area of the EC22 can be very high and demands attention at times. The cat ketch/tabernacle rig is a good choice for very practical reasons and gives up only a little in speed and probably makes up for that in the overall sense.

    Multihulls are obviously faster and keep their crews out in the elements for much shorter times. Taking longer paths can easily pay off in elapsed times for faster boats. Each race and course brings its own demands and no one design is always superior. I am always amazed at the performance of kayaks and other paddle boats.

    Allan's "Mosquito Bait" tri is designed for the 1200 mile Round Florida race and there are a multitude of compromises that must be made in the EC to allow performance on rivers and portages. This boat was launched for a few minutes at the last moment before having to hit the road for Ft Desoto so some shakedown problems are inevitable. Allan and his mother Dawn will get it all together and do us proud.
     
  5. lewisboats
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    lewisboats Obsessed Member

    Is there a length limit?
    Every year I sketch up something that I think might work and this year I think I might be getting close...'cept it runs 25'3" tip to tail. It would actually weigh less than an EC22 I think and draw about 4.5" when heeled although it will draft 6.25" level. Waterlines are more like a fat canoe but it could plane if given the right circumstances. Should be fairly easy to row, especially with a 2 man crew. Shown displacement is 1200 lbs but that includes all gear and 400 lbs of crew. I expect the actual boat itself would come in between 400 and 500 lbs, maybe even a tad less.

    [​IMG]

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    Couple more years and I'll get another week's vacation...then it might be something doable... a father/son thing I think.
     
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  6. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    ===================
    Tom, the Mosquito is one of the hottest "beach" tri designs I've seen since Scissors. Here is a relevant thread with pictures and links to the Mosquito story:
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/al...-county-park-mullet-key-3-3-2012-a-42106.html
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    Raps, I'm working on a small monohull planing design similar but smaller(14') to the pix below that uses sliding on deck ballast. The crew sits inside-hopefully in a seat that can recline. The boat would also use DSS to really turbo up offwind performance and the other foils would be kick-up. I don't think I'd want to do this challenge for a number of reasons but I may let someone else try this boat if it turns out to be viable for the Challenge.
    Are you considering a boat? Gary Baigents 18' Skimmer seems almost perfect(for a monohull)-hope he'll post a picture....
     

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  7. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

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  8. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    I always wanted to know what stayed wingmasts (30%) would do on something like an EC22. The ability to get more power/ less drag out of shorter masts might make this a little more of a hotrod. Other discussions some time ago about an older catamaran indicated that the wing mast would act as a roll limiter in a knockdown if you used foam sandwich construction.
     
  9. CutOnce

    CutOnce Previous Member

    The Everglades Challenge has a bunch of "twists" that define the boats:

    - Boats are hand launched from above the high water mark with no aids other than those carried to the end of the race (i.e. foam rollers can be used but must be carried).

    - Boats must be capable of quickly passing under low obstacles (i.e. rig should be drop-able and instantly re-rigged on the water). This generally make freestanding, unstayed rigs preferred. Shorter mast(s) are easier to handle, hence the amount of cat ketch rigs.

    - Boats need to be manually propelled easily. Oars, paddles and yulohs should be used to keep things moving and help with tides, currents and making way in channels and cuts against strong currents.

    - Shallow draft really broadens route selection and which channels and cuts are possible.

    - Exposure to sun can be a real problem - and some way to minimise exposure really can make a difference. Dodgers and sun shades make a difference.

    Most of these criteria helped refine Graham Byrne's creation of the EC22 to be the "perfect" boat for experienced competitors. The EC22 predecessors (Core Sound series by Byrnes) have won the Challenge as well.

    --
    CutOnce
     
  10. Doug Lord
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    Doug Lord Flight Ready

    =======

    Check Gary's wingmasted cat ketch here: http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/21st-century-daysailer-weekender-30756-2.html post 23
     
  11. sharpii2
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    sharpii2 Senior Member

    All in all, I think this is a good wrinkle in the sport of sailing. This flavor of competition will do much to bring small sailboat design to where it should be. Gone are the ever deeper bulb keels. Not much help if you want to sail across a two foot deep oyster bed. Gone too is the insistence that the centerboard go in the center line of the boat (easier for it to get jammed up when beaching). Better to place it slightly off center, if you have any dead rise to your hull. Gone as well, is the elaborately stayed tall rig (you have to take it down to make it to some of the checkpoints.)

    More and more, it looks like the multi's are coming to dominate the sport, with their light weight, shallow draft and high speed.

    The one thing that seems a bit depressing is the growing size of the boats. It seems like you need something 20 ft plus to stay competitive. That's why the one person boats are more interesting to me.

    For a one person mono, I'd pick a sharpie of about 15 ft in length, but narrow enough to row decently.

    It would have a water tight compartment on each end, with hatches for stowing gear in them.

    The center section would be at least 6ft long and have a raised sole, so the skipper could lay down in it comfortably. It, too, would have hatches for stowage of heavier items, such as bottled water and ground tackle.

    It would have a tabernacle main mast that could be easily raised and lowered.

    It would be ketch, cat ketch or even cat schooner rigged, for better directional stability. And the sails would have gaffs, yards, or lots of battens.

    It would have lee boards or an off set centerboard, so the skipper can sit and lay next to it, rather than behind it.

    It would have a kick up rudder blade, engineered so the rudder could be used with the blade up or down (I have been able to make windward progress with my Siren 17 with the board fully retracted and the rudder blade kicked up, but the rudder stock seemed not quite strong enough for this kind of treatment).

    Lastly, its design purpose would be to always complete the event, not necessarily win it.

    Clearly, there are plenty of hulls out there that meet my first requirements. I's how they're finished and rigged that will make all the difference.

    I would certainly consider trying my Coal Car 12 scow design (if I ever get a chance to build it) with just a few modifications. It wouldn't ever win but would stand a good chance of finishing.
     

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  12. Gary Baigent
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    Gary Baigent Senior Member

    The 5.5 metre Cox's Bay Skimmer would probably fit the Everglades Challenge okay. Since that earlier posting, the unstayed wing masts have been changed to stayed rigs with the bearings lifted to deck level (the fore main bent the carbon lower area, apparently not enough lamination so I cut the cantilever sections off). The stays (which I like because I've quit worrying about the rigs now), would make the time lowering the rigs a little longer - but maybe not at all because they pivot on the round bearings; whereas the unstayed setup required you to lift the whole assembly up and out; not that easy for the fore main with a tippy boat, even though the masts are light, but easier with the large water ballast tank filled. The boat is surprisingly good beating with the wing masts and large, low sail area, offwind it planes easily. But maybe, for singlehanding, a DSS foil might be necessary for more righting moment and to handle the quite large sail power?
     

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  13. upchurchmr
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    upchurchmr Senior Member

    Gary,

    How well do you go to weather compared to other 5M daysailors?
    How much do the wing masts weight and how tall are they?
    Do you use a trapeze? One or both crew?
    Could you provide a closer picture of your traveler setup.

    "Looks like" the boat would obviously plane easily.

    Really interesting boat, thanks for the pictures.
     
  14. PAR
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    PAR Yacht Designer/Builder

    The two biggest issues with the EC race are extreme shoal draft and the ability to get under low bridges. A wing mast wouldn't lower well and the southern portion of the race can leave you with dozens of miles in 8" deep water, so you better be shoal. How long did Graham sit on the flats, waiting on some water to fill in Tom?
     

  15. tom28571
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    tom28571 Senior Member

    I don't remember the exact time Paul. It was at least overnight and some beyond that. It was a fairly stiff NE wind that blew the water out and made for difficult tacking in the open pools searching for a lead. Sounds like the Artic doesn't it? Snowhoes or the like are a great accessory for towing the boat when you can sink up to the knees at each step.

    A catamaran like the Tornado sailed by Bumpy can avoid much of this problem by sailing fast and outside the closer inshore routes. Many entrants cannot safely go offshore and must slug it out inside. This year, very few appear to be taking their boats outside because of the rough weather. Survival may be an even greater goal this year than normally.
     
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