environmental concerns using boat yard paints and other chemicals

In the thread Awl grip Challange, the thread changed into a rant for and against the EPA and other "tree Huggers" Lets use this thread to post our concerns rather than using Grady's thread

 

Well done Jer. I feel somewhat pissed off at what happened to "multihull haven up FNQ - near Cardwell. He was forced to go to China with his building project primarily due to bureaucratic stubborn-ness. Oh well - thems the breaks..

 

i rather breathe awl-grip then air
but,,,would like my kids to be able to breathe
now im jus gonna start confusing myself

 

I set fairly strict guidelines for myself and family concerning the environment, But that is a personal choice. And I'm sure not everyone would that the high road if given a opportunity to make that choice for them selves.

So I guess we need some restrictions.........But as generalized statement....


I WISH THE GOVERNMENT WOULD BUTT OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

It's good to be concerned about our natural environment. We should be concerned about some particular things, worrisome things. But the trouble is the things we really ought to be worried about are not the same things we are told to worry about. The thing the environmentalists have decided we need to worry about just happen to be the things that will lead to the greatest political power for their movement. THIS SHOULD BOTHER YOU!!This is because the environmental movement has degenerated into a run-of-the-mill political power movement. As with all political movements (including the party or group each of us favors, whichever that is) lies and exaggerations are part of the game.

But at the same time, we live in the information age. We can pretty easily verify or disprove whatever a pundit says. It's up to us to educate ourselves as to what is really happening and what we should and should NOT worry about.

Jimbo

 

ya the gov. has selective sight,,,,they'll tell us our paint kills the air,,but then give tax breaks to companies that produce enough "killing" agents ta kill 4 planets.,,,,,Grady,,thats another thing you'll notice FAST,,specially here in west texas,,,it freakin STINKS here,,all these flares from the oil and gas companies,,i had a headache for 3 years down here

 

Gentlemen the government has to step in, because people like us put our concerns first. Money, convenience--all self interests. I ground off my bottom paint and hosed it into the channel, because it was easy---, and after a few hundred other guys like me did that we were wondering why there were no more fish around the marina. What does one Awl grip spray job mean? not much, but a few hundred jobs mean a lot, so yes the Government does need to get involved to stop people like me who are amateurs and only spray or grind once a year, but have the attitude that once doesn't matter. Can't tell you how many times I have said that---I need to be watched.

 

ya on that kapt.,,but it also needs to be said that "green" people are'nt the gov.,,most the time it takes "those" people hollering and screaming just to get the gov. to look. then when they save "something" they wanna say they did it in our interest.,, you would think between all us here we could gather enough brain cells ( i got 1 fer the cause heh) togather to tell ourselves ( man dumba**,,do it the right way) ,,but we dont,,i guess you can just call me LAZY,,i want everything saved, fixed, alive,,,,but i get up in the morning and start my "convenient" life again, and look at my kids SRAIGHT in their eyes and tell them i LOVE em,,,,,but,,i then turn around and do my part in making sure that their kids DONT have clean air to breathe,,see's pictures of animals,,and daydream about how it musta been to be out on a sail boat, look in the blue'ish-green water, and hear grampa jim tyhrough his oxygen mask tell them what "fishing" was like.

 

Much,

You've hit on an important point: most of the time, it's environmental pressure groups that wind up making policy by squawking loudly or more recently suing the government to FORCE it to enact policies that they KNOW could NEVER be enacted in the proper venue, our elected state and federal legislatures.

This was exactly what happened with the spotted owl, and it continues to happen with the spotted owl and other species. Even after it has been conclusively proven that the 'spotted owl' is simply a variety of the 'Common Owl', environmentalists have moved on to other species, making false and misleading claims as to their rarity to among other things stop ALL logging on federal lands. Keep in mind that forests on government owned lands are maturing approximately 9 billion board feet of harvestable lumber annually, while we actually harvest less than 1 billion board feet from those same forests. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that this constant surplus of wood coupled with the 'put out every fire' policy is a recipe for a major wildfire disaster. This is piss-poor forest management, but is what we get when we let special interest groups like these manage public policy by litigation instead of letting the legitimate policymakers that we have elected do so.

And then these same green wackos will tell you that we have to worry about de-forestation in the US while we have actually been RE-foresting for about a century, now

 

half my family are loggers ( the otha half fishermen) and i've seen first hand what the gov. says you have to do when logging, and what you HAVE to do after,,( and MOST all people against logging is against CLEAR cutting,,not "logging") and the after effects are devastating,,in place of 1000 acres of trees,, in 5 years its full od rasberry stickers,,,,which only helps very FEW animals,, specially when theres a patch every few acres.,,thats the government standards ,,,the "wackos" want it replaced with more TREES,,,,,and the spotted owl is just 1 instance , how many "instances" has the gov. done nothing and now its too late?,, jimbo you seem awful worried that everyones lying,,,,well they are,,both sides,,,but as i've said before,,,i'd drather side on being OVER CAREFUL,,then under estimate the problem until its only a memory .

 

Jim, We are not running out of forest! Even if we agree that clearcutting is bad (I don't like it; I like the way the Canadians do it) , it all grows back as a functional forest in 20 years! Why even mention a 5 year span? The environmentalists insist that it takes CENTURIES for a forest to grow back; no serious scientists says it takes longer than 50-70 years. What do you think happens in a wildfire? Why do you give (mostly preventable) natural disaster (forest fire) a pass? Why is it OK to 'let it burn' rather than harvest? Who benefits from that policy?

 

after a burn,,there is growth,,a burn gives the ground nutrients ,, clear cutting erodes the ground,and in place of trees you have small ground brush that grown at 20 times the rate of trees, which in turn chokes the trees out and keeps light from getting to the tree. the Canadians come over HERE to do most of their logging now,,,,why,,,,because the canadian government wants, and knows that forests brings money. and YES we are running out of forests,,i can give you numbers that would boggle a mind,,but then you revert to,,its all lies,, whoever dont agree with YOUR numbers is a lier. why doesnt florida have pollution? cause wind blows,, look at maine,, it has the 3rd lowest industrial production plants then other states,,we should have almost PURE air there shouldnt we??,,but,,it has one of the 5th highest air pollution,,why?,,because the wind comes from the west and south ,,,and where does them west southerners pollution go?? to maine. so as you BRAG ( about something you have NO idea about, unless of course you have the instruments and the knowledge to use em ) about florida has NO air pollution,,i want ta shoot the people that are KILLING my kids and bragging bout it. but then i have to say,,well,it takes all kinds
oh,,,,and i can show you pics of a place that was cut before i was born,,and 40 years later,,its a brush pile,,i see no FUNCTION in that,,,,now times it by,,,oh say a million acres,,,in fact google earth any of the numbers of papermill land in maine,,take a look,,then tell me that last post again

 

Much,
You can't seem to talk rationally about this subject without going off into a tirade. Now stop attacking me and address my points of argument!

The thing is there's no scientific data to back up what you're saying.

First off, logging and the timber industry have LITTLE OR NOTHING TO DO with deforestation in the US, and hardly anywhere else for that matter. The harm that the loggers did was to cut down our 'heritage' forests with the big majestic trees. Now THOSE trees take centuries to re-grow. But a forest does not need those trees to function as a forest. We DO want to save those trees out of appreciation for their beauty.

As I said, deforestation cannot be blamed on logging. Deforestation ALWAYS comes from land clearing for the purpose of FARMING (except tree farming, of course ), mostly corn and wheat farming. And the adoption of modern high-yield farming methods is the reason we have been RE-foresting for a century, NOT because we banned logging in the mid 80's

We can grow the same food on an acre that it used to take anywhere from 4 to 10 acres back in the 19th century. This has allowed us to idle vast areas of farm land, which in turn returns to forest. We see it all around central Florida; forests with big pines and oaks but also rows of orange trees in the undergrowth. 25 years ago these were active orange groves. Yet we still grow most of the citrus in the USA.

And guess who's vehemently opposed to high-yield farming methods? You gueed right if you said " the green wackos" Round two is well under way as they try to get a ban on GM crops, which if adopted will help Asia and Africa re-forest, too.

The basic message of the green wackos is that industry and technology is what is ruining the environment, but the reality is that all the REAL environmental progress (And there has been TREMENDOUS progress) happens BECAUSE of advances in industry and technology.

And on air quality: both the US and Europe have cleaner air than they have at any time in the last 100 years (and not just Florida). There are a few bad spots, like the valleys of CA and Houston to name two, but on the whole this is true. This despite tremendous population growth and the abundance of electricity and transportation powered by cheap fossil fuels.

 

I lived in LA for a while many years ago and it was a common joke in town that you can't see above the 13th floor. Businesses even took the name in various alterations for themselves. You can now see above the 13th floor downtown as the smog, which is still bad is clearly much better since the California Clean Air Act was enforced. Yes, it made cars more expensive, but it also forced the manufactures to build a better product, which resulted in computer controls.

I remember changing spark plugs ever 10,000 miles, doing valve jobs after 30,000 on my bikes, setting points and replacing wires. These where the things that just had to be done. Now you can put 250,000 miles on a car, while it still wears it's original distributor cap, plugs and wires. This is the direct descendant of an evolution caused by the manufactures being forced to "up grade" for the sake of the tree huggers.

The US Clean Air Act was passed in 1964, which started the ball rolling. The entire area west of the Rockies, would have been cut clean of trees (just like east of the Mississippi), if it were not for a notorious tree hugger who happened to luck into the presidency (literally) and now has his mug carved into Mt. Rushmore.

Everyone well understands that the government wouldn't willingly permit poisons to be spilled in our waterways, soil or air, nor that business wouldn't short cut safety issues to pocket a buck. It has never been found that a business or government would cover up a mistake or short change the tax payer or hide vital information from the people, now has it. Our fine upstanding government officials and business executives would never knowingly piss on our back and tell us it raining.

We need regulation because they do piss on our backs. They have buried mega tons of poisons in the soil, air and waterways and lied about it.

This country owes its very existence, to these simple truths about powerful and/or wealthy people. The freedoms we enjoy and well take for granted, are a direct result of our unwillingness as a society to tolerate continued abuses of the few.

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government"

From the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence. It is our unwavering right to stand not for the injustices of the realms we've asked to tolerate, but to fight hard against it. The whinny and complaining among us in the mid 18th century were the "loyalists" of the day and they were booted out along with their red coated brothers by 1781. The nay sayers of the day were the "radicals" or insurgents and tree huggers of the era and though no one thought they had a chance, over coming and forcing change was to be.

This has always been the case in regard to insurgencies. They always win, because you're not fighting an infrastructure, but a concept. Historically, this has been the case. We didn't catch Poncho Villa, we haven't caught Osama, we couldn't bring down North Vietnam, the British haven't changed the minds of the Irish, etc. You can break the body, but the spirit remains.

We've struggled though several near collapses of our own government as a result of goverenment or business policies, once requiring nearly a half a million brothers to take death to each other.

Woman wouldn't be allowed to vote, nor would anyone who didn't own land or who wasn't white, if it weren't for the people's right to insist on accountability from government and business. Children would still be in factories tolling 14 hour days, the police would round up the "usual suspects" and beat a confession out of them, men would go unrepresented at trial, and countless other issues would not have been addressed had it not been for intervention on the peoples behalf or plane old rioting by the people.

I will always hold, "We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends." to heart.

From the second to last paragraph of the afore mentioned literary work.

 

The operable word is accountability. If we were all accountable the Government would never have to get involved, but like I said before we, are mostly self indulgent, and only look at the greater good when we are forced to do so. I believe one of the problems with environmental issues is that many are not evident. It is difficult to see global warming, the fish kills are very slow in developing. It is not the same as running a red light (another government regulation) the results are not as immediate, but in the end the same result. So I believe that the "tree huggers" do serve their purpose, and government , in the most part, serves to make us all accountable.