electric oil pump for oil changes and priming

Discussion in 'Diesel Engines' started by simon, Nov 8, 2008.

  1. simon
    Joined: May 2002
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    simon Senior Member

    I have read a few years ago, about a solution that would install a electric oil pump in the oil circuit. The pump would be used to prime the engine before starting up. The pump will also be used to change the oil.
    Of course I can not find the source of information again.
    How would such a setup look like?

    Thanks and a nice day.

    Simon
     
  2. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    I think you have two uses for an electric pump in this type of installation mixed up.

    I always install a low volume feeder pump on diesel engine fuel lines to allow priming the racor filter if you need to change it under way. This allowes you to refill the bowl without messing around trying to pull fuel from somewhere else. This pump is installed upstream of the racor filter with a bypass valve on both sides of the pump so that it can be removed from the system during normal running. For twin engine boats I normally use one pump for both and just use a Y fitting to connect the lines to the pump.

    The second is using a in place oil pump to remove the oil from the oil tank. This is normally done for large engines that may have a few gallons of oil each. It is a pretty easy set up. Just a line that can be run into the oil tank connected to a small diaphram pump rated to handle oil. With the outlet valve dumping into 5 gallon buckets, or old oil jugs.

    I love both systems, but I would be hesitant to use the same pump for both syatems due to cross contamination of oil and diesel fuel.

    If you are talking about on a gass engine, then you MUST use a fuel pump rated for gas to prevent it from being eaten by it and clogging the filters.
     
  3. simon
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    simon Senior Member

    Thanks Stumble for your answer,

    I think that I have not properly explained the priming part. The oil pump circulate the oil before starting the engine. This would reduce the wear on the engine. The pump would need to be installed in the oil circuit and a two way valve for extracting the old oil. I am thinking about installing a remote filter, with adapter at the engine and hoses running to a remote filter mount.

    Simon
     
  4. CDK
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    CDK retired engineer

    In theory wear is reduced if the engine is lubricated before starting, but there is no practical way to do that.
    The pump could deliver enough pressure to get cold oil under the bearing shells and up the valve train, but it cannot do any good for the parts that rely on movement to receive oil, like the cylinder walls and piston rings. It would need extensive engine modifications (oil jets) to achieve that.

    A far simpler solution is to use an oil additive like molybdenum-disulphide that leaves a low friction film on all wear-exposed surfaces.
     
  5. Stumble
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    Stumble Senior Member

    Ahh, I see what you are saying now.

    I am with CDK, I don't think there is a reasonable solution to what you want to do. But on a most boats I don't think there are enough cold starts to worry about if the rest of the lubricating system is working.
     
  6. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    It is cheap and simple to pre oil any engine , gas or diesel.

    The secret is to get an electric solenoid and a 4 quart (or so) used aircraft hyd Accumulator.

    The engine is "overfilled" with oil and on start the oil will pressurize the accumulator, at which point the valve is closed.

    On the next cold start the valve is opened to the oil passages with 3 or 4 quarts of pressurized oil. Then the engine is started , and the recharge procedure is simply to wait a couple of min. and close the valve.

    To actually change engine oil only requires a small geared pump , as if your smart the oil is good and hot from hours of running , and thin.


    For Dockside boats a pre oiler is fine , but a Block Heater is far better summer or winter but esp. in winter.

    FF
     
  7. StianM
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    StianM Senior Member

    Using oil additive's are defently not recomended.
    If you check engine manuals there will be recomendations to witch oil to use and adding additives will change the oil's capabiletys to something that is outside the recomandations from the produced of engine and oil and therefor you get nothing if you have a "accident" since warranty is void since you did not use the recomended oil. oopps.

    On larger diesels there is quite commomn to use a priming pump both to enshure there is load bearing oil film on all bearing surfaces and because the engines safety stopp functions don't allow starts on zero preshure.

    It's easely done by having a electrical pump witch sucks from the same line as the engines own pump and discharge on the same line as the engines own pump.
    The pump can be started by a multifunction timer witch start the pump for 10seconds and second multitimer witch delay the start of the engine by 7 seconds and the engine's pump and the electrical pump will have a 3 second owerlap.

    You could also add low preshure starts on it so it could work as a backup pump if the main pump fails, but then the logic to make all this work automaticly will start to be so advanced that it would be easier and more economical to buy a siemens logo PLC for 150$.
     
  8. CDK
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    CDK retired engineer

    ""Using oil additive's are defently not recomended.
    If you check engine manuals there will be recomendations to witch oil to use and adding additives will change the oil's capabiletys to something that is outside the recomandations from the produced of engine and oil and therefor you get nothing if you have a "accident" since warranty is void since you did not use the recomended oil. oopps.""

    Oil additives are widely used in the industry. In fact you get oil with several additives whenever you buy any brand of superior grade engine oil.

    What a car manufacturer recommends is not the issue here. In general they specify only the minimum requirements like an API standard and do not encourage using off the shelf additives because it would lead to the ignorant owner pouring all kinds of concoctions in the engine.

    From a technical point of view there is nothing against using a small quantity of film building additive.

    Do you think modifying the lubrication system system with an added pump and valves does not endanger a warranty claim?
     
  9. StianM
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    StianM Senior Member

    All oils contain additives, but they are documented trough the oil producers certification standard and I doubt neather you or me are more qualified than Mobil, Castrol or Shell to decide witch amount of additives should be used.

    Priming systems are not interfering with warenty as long as this is a option from the maker.
     
  10. simon
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    simon Senior Member

    I have a Volvo Penta 2040 and I doubt that Volvo has any interest in longevity of the engine. Sticking to Volvo original parts make you turn poor, faster than any stock exchange investment.

    What about the oil change pump and the remote filters?
    Because Volvo, or is it Perkins (confused as the engine is green, Volvo model plate on it, but Perkins is written on it), places the oil filters horizontally. every oil filter change is a pain. oil drips into the bilge, impossible to place anything under it.
    The engine looks like Alfred Diesel designed it during his experimental stage.

    OK, so much for my love for Volvo.

    Simon
     
  11. CDK
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    CDK retired engineer

    There was a time when Volvo used a Volvo engine (120 hp gasoline), but that was long ago. Soon they discovered that buying obsolete engines and just sticking another name plate on it brought more profit. Like Mercruiser.

    Make an adapter plate for the present filter holder flange and use reinforced hydraulic hoses to a more convenient location where the filter can be mounted vertically. Place a T-piece in the input circuit, followed by a one-way valve so no oil can flow back. On the open side of the T either screw a 1/2" ball valve or plug it.
    There you can connect a commercially available 12 volts oil change pump.

    The hardware mentioned may be common plumbing stuff or from a store that supplies industrial hydraulics parts. The adapter plate you probably have to make yourself, although for a lot of engines there exist such adapters if the engine has been standard equipment in a boat or other vehicle where the position of the vehicle posed a problem.
    I've owned an Isuzu 4WD with a GM engine where they moved the oil filter to a location that did not interfere with the front drive train.
     
  12. StianM
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    StianM Senior Member

    Just wonder, do annyone make centrifugal filters that can be mounted outside the engine? I know some diesel makers have those filters located on the engine.

    As for oil change I would try to get a pipe conection where the drain plug is since it would help getting out all the old oil.
     
  13. White Knight
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    White Knight Chief

    Slippery subject!

    Simon, I have seen references to many commercially available engine peroilers over the years. A google search will no doubt turn up many solutions under "engine preoilers." www.ep-4.com is a link for a good vane type pump set up for the job,and someone used to offer a meshed eccentric gear type designed for dragsters that was practically bullet proof. Maybe Honest Charlie's Speed Parts online catalogue would locate that one for you. They're located here in Chattanooga and well worth a personal visit as they have Hot Rod parts, speed parts and a great new museum full of rare old cars and motorcycles. Fast Fred's (post #6) reference recalls one idea I've seen available from auto parts sources. The fabulous engine in the McClaren F-1 supercar automatically turns over several revolutions before ignition to send oil before a load is placed on itself. Simple & smart, I like that. Oil scrubbers, similar to fuel scrubbers are coming into vogue too. Both oil and fuel scrubbers will greatly reduce prolonged engine wear. Preoilers have gotta help too, since startup is where much of your worst wear occurs. If you plan to keep your vessel for a long time they might be well worth while. If not, the life of your engine with regular oil changes is long and fairly predictable. Later, Mark
     

  14. FAST FRED
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    FAST FRED Senior Member

    Oil scrubbers, similar to fuel scrubbers are coming into vogue too. Both oil and fuel scrubbers will greatly reduce prolonged engine wear.

    Most folks think of an oil scrubber as an oil bypass filter.

    These predate the full flow more modern filtration and do a great job.

    A combination of Mfg full flow with the addition of a bypass filter is probably as good as can be done.

    Beware the bypass is slow , so is mostly of use on boats that operate for longer times , say 3 hours at a clip or more.

    Our 1944 DD 6-71 Only has a bypass filter as was common at that time.

    On an oil change of a more modern full flow filter 8V71 the oil is totally black , after restart to look for leaks.

    On the bypass filter system the oil is clear , almost like new till over 50 hours , at which point it slowly darkens , at 125 hours it looks like the 8V oil after 60 seconds.

    Oil sampeling on both engines , is good.

    FF
     
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