Eestor silver bullet stealth battery

Discussion in 'OnBoard Electronics & Controls' started by Ratch, Apr 6, 2008.

  1. Ratch
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    Ratch Junior Member

    10 x better than the latest lithium technology and half the price of a lead acid?

    Eestor have been very quiet about this no press releases etc. Most of the hype was from the patent and a few of the partnerships it attracted most note worthy is Lockheed Martin.

    Check out the Wiki and follow a few of the links and see what you think. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eestor

    If this pans out it will replace every other battery on the market.
     
  2. charmc
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    charmc Senior Member

    Interesting. The Lockheed Martin connection adds credibility. Cost estimates, of course, must be taken with a grain of salt given the present unstable state of materials pricing.

    Overall, though, this is an example of product development one would expect given high fossil fuel prices and a plethora of efficient electric drivetrains waiting only for more efficient power storage to become economically viable.

    I might have missed something, but, based on the quoted energy densities, these are 1.5 to 2 x better than lithium ion batteries, not 10 x. Still a significant advance.

    Thanks for posting the link.
     
  3. Pericles
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    Pericles Senior Member

    Charlie,

    Nigel Calder mentioned ultra capacitors on page 107 at http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20080203/ , but did not give any names. Great if it's true, but if Cycle 24 is delayed until October 2008, humans will far more important things to worry about.

    Anyone remember how cold the 1940s through to the 1970s were? Well, North America is going to be accessible by walking across the Atlantic or the Bering Sea fairly soon if David Archibald is right. It's a very good report.

    http://ncwatch.typepad.com/dalton_minimum_returns/files/Solar_Arch_NY_Mar2_08.pdf

    Can I fit ice breaker bows to a cruising catamaran with any hope of success?:D

    Perry
     
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  4. charmc
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    charmc Senior Member

    Perry,

    Maybe better to fit runners? Tris are close to ideal iceboat configuration already. Would add a new dimension to the foil vs non-foil debate. :D

    The article is intriguing. Climate change seems to be one of the few arguments more vehement than foil vs non-foil or AC rules. :D
     
  5. charmc
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    charmc Senior Member

    Perry,

    Since our last two are a bit off topic (wouldn't want to start a dangerous precedent on the forum :D ), maybe add Archibald's article link to the climate change thread?

    On present topic; the biggest drawback to be overcome for ultracapacitors to become a practical replacement for batteries is what makes them very good for electric vehicle racing: their rapid discharge rate.

    Many problems, many technologies. What's good is that rising fossil fuel prices are making alternative energy R & D attractive to more investment capital.
     
  6. charmc
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    charmc Senior Member

    Sorry, Perry, you were way ahead of me. :)
     
  7. Ratch
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    Ratch Junior Member

    Some new stuff on eestor

    http://www.news.com/8301-10784_3-9770849-7.html
    http://www.news.com/8301-11128_3-9908050-54.html?tag=nefd.top
    http://www.statesman.com/business/content/business/stories/technology/04/14/0414plugged.html
    http://www.ecogeek.org/content/view/1533/69/
    http://venturebeat.com/2008/04/01/will-lithium-ion-get-replaced-longer-lasting-recyclable-batteries-due-in-laptops-this-summer/


    There has to be a bit of fiction here for example millions of cycles has to be theoretical because to test it would 30 years. Another is the 5 minute charge, on a small battery ok but for a car that can do 250 miles that would melt your house wiring and still not get close to a factional charge, more like overnight charge or specialty charge station. Still nothing from eestor they are being very hush hush about this.
     
  8. Pericles
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    Pericles Senior Member

    Hello Ratch,

    Thank you for posting those links. The first one is old news, however. The second article by Michael Kanellos does not point out that it is ultimately the Canadian government that is delaying the launch of the Eestor Zenn. I wonder why not.

    Robert Elder writes of the ultra capacitor as a batterylike device that can store large amounts of electricity. Either he is ignorant of the workings of the Eestor unit or he is dumbing down his article for his readers. In either case that's not good. As Robert Elder covers business for the American-Statesman, he is not a science writer and his opinion of the technology is probably valueless. Look what this elder old hack has written "the fact is, we'll have to wait on EEStor the way we've waited for every breakthrough in power storage technology. There is no Moore's Law as there is in semiconductors. Progress in energy storage is measured in years, not months."

    How the hell can he possibly know that the Eestor technology isn't going to be subject to similar exponential growth, when the sales revenues are ploughed back into further developments. That's just trite scribbling.

    As for Ecogeek, the comments once again reveal paucity of knowledge. Andy had not researched the literature otherwise he would not have needed to be corrected by the second commentator. As for the rest, most are examples of dysgenic copulation. Do their opinions matter? Not really, because their posts reveal them as of little significance in the wider world. Chris Morrison is writing about Lithium ion and mentions Eestor only as an aside.

    If you have not consulted Wikipedia about Eestor you are missing a valuable source of information, especially the references and external links. Google currently lists 54,500 results, the first being

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEstor

    Printed reference books are no longer as useful in scientific matters, so again useful working knowledge is available at

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapacitor

    I don't know about you, but I completely discount the MSM as a reliable source for anything, except thieves' cant and hypocrisy. On balance, I'm inclined to rely upon the references listed in Wikipedia articles about the advances in sciences. In this instance, they help me to accurately judge the claims made by Eestor. Which means I think your final paragraph reveals to me that your opinion has little merit, but it's yours and you are entitled to hold it. I just think you should read more before putting digits to keyboard.
     
  9. Ratch
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    Ratch Junior Member

    Hi Pericles,

    I am sorry you feel that way however I think it only fair that I point out that if you too would read more before putting digits to keyboard you would notice I linked Wikipedia in my first post.

    Be that as it may most of the information available about Eestor is speculative and any opinion mine included is going to be at best a speculative opinion. Only Eestor knows the facts and they are not taking and I wouldn't have even posted this if it were not for Lockheed Martin interest in the product, one of the articles said it would cost half as much as a lead acid and delivery to Zenn is within 12 months.

    I am not sure what part of my last paragraph be it the 5 minute charge or the millions of cycles you didn't like?

    5 minute charge
    Take 1 x 100w halogen headlight and run it for 4 hours (it would take 4 hours to drive the 250 range doing 60 mile an hour). This would be 1.6ah@240v multiplied by 12 to give a 5 minute charge is 20amps @ 240v. In my house I can only charge one head light in 5 minutes. Two head lights is going to need special wiring in the house and the whole car is going to need special wiring in the street. No me thinks this 5 minute stuff is only for those of us with nuclear reactors in the basement or possibly a capacitor bank that has been on charge for the day.
    millions of cycles
    (365 days x 24 hours x 60 minutes/15 minutes)/1000000 cycles = 28.5 years.
     
  10. Pericles
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    Pericles Senior Member

    Hello Ratch,

    The 5 minute charge is from one EEstor to another.

    You wrote this. "Another is the 5 minute charge, on a small battery ok but for a car that can do 250 miles that would melt your house wiring and still not get close to a factional charge, more like overnight charge or specialty charge station."

    That's blindingly obvious, because that's what is written on Wikipedia. Look! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEstor

    "However, standard household wiring is not capable of delivering the power required for this, so charging times this short would probably require purpose-built high capacity dispensing stations. Overnight charging at home should still be practical, as is using a second EESU for the home which could be charged overnight using cheap, off-peak electricity to then charge the EEStor unit in the car in 5-10 minutes on demand."

    Millions of Cycles? Not on the Wikipedia entry. I have not seen an EEstor claim for that and I have been looking for their press release. Do you have such a press release to hand?

    "Only EEstor knows the facts and they are not taking (sic)". Your words I believe?

    Then why do you speculate.? Are you bored?
     
  11. Ratch
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    Ratch Junior Member

    Wikipedia is only as good as the reference material it gets information from. The millions of cycles comes from here.

    Don't just take what wiki says on faith read directly from the source it is one of the things I like best about wiki is that they cite where they get the info from. In this case because so much is speculative I strongly suggest you read the reference material it will show a better perspective on the article itself.

    5 minute charge is not immediately obvious as almost every second story seems to quote it as fact. My comments were mainly for anyone who just skims the links.
     
  12. Pericles
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    Pericles Senior Member

    Good bleedin' grief Ratch,

    I've been reading references to scientific papers since probably before you were born.:D :D :D :D :D On top of that, the link you posted does not mentions millions of cycles as you claim, sorry and all that.

    "The EEStor technology has been tested up to a million cycles with no material degradation compared to lead acid batteries that optimistically have 500 to 700 recharge cycles."

    Also, why do you assume a 15 minute cycle for your calculation of 28 years?

    As for the five minute charge, it is explained very well in the third paragraph of the Wiki article you originally cited. It is the Energy Blog you cited in your last post that is remiss with the facts about how to achieve a five minute recharge time.

    It's as if at first you liked EEstor and then you damned them with faint praise

    "Another is the 5 minute charge, on a small battery ok but for a car that can do 250 miles that would melt your house wiring and still not get close to a factional charge, more like overnight charge or specialty charge station."

    Still and all, we both have another year to wait for the grand launch, , so I'm not selling my Volvo just yet. About the same time we shall wait for Cycle 24 to start, so I might need to keep it for the snowstorms :D :D :D :D :D

    Pericles
     
  13. Ratch
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    Ratch Junior Member

    6th bullet point down. 'I just think you should read more before putting digits to keyboard.':p

    'The EEStor technology has been tested up to a million cycles with no material degradation compared to lead acid batteries that optimistically have 500 to 700 recharge cycles,'
     
  14. brian eiland
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    brian eiland Senior Member


  15. masalai
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    masalai masalai

    Thanks for the link Brian...
     
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