EC design categories and passenger capacities

[TANSL]

In such a case the boats carry their CE mark as well as comply with Flag regulations for their type/size/exact purpose.

That's what I meant, that is not the same as fcfc is saying, imo. If I am wrong, please accept my apologies.

 

[Alik]

Regulations are a bit more complex than that.

I agree CE marking RCD apply to recreational boats. But some EU countries (at least France) recognize "commercially operated" "recreational craft".

"recreational craft" no more than 12 passengers onboard. On special conditions, can go up to 30. Sailboat, daylight, operated from single harbour ... (hence the meaning of D30 for the french Lagoon 42)

But the boat must technically comply CE marking for number of people (passenger + crew) on board. 12 passengers + 2 crew = you need CE marking for at least 14 for your intended design category.

Equipment and licences are specific for this kind of use (a mix between pure recreational and commercial passenger). Some constraints on boarding and fire equipment beyond pure CE requirement.

I do not know how other countries (even within EU) recognize this French specific regulation.

RCD and ISO Small Craft also cover commercially operated recreational craft. However, no CE label will contain the word 'passengers' or 'passengers+crew'. Passengers can be defined/covered by regulations of country of flag, but this will not affect the CE label where all persons on board are defined as 'crew'.

 

[Ad Hoc]

I've been sailing recently on a Lagoon 42 cat and noticed the builder's plate mentioning several max loads and passenger capacities for the four EC Design categories (A,B,C,D).

I think the wording used is a misnomer. There is no 'design' category. There are Classes which categorises vessels, thus:



The CE mark is merely a show of compliance with European rules on HSE etc. noted here.

Can anyone clarify? Are the passengers indicated on the builders plate "sleeping guests" or just day passengers? And would MCA have a restriction on maximum number of guests that overrules the EC certification regarding maximum passenger carrying capacity and load?

It is down to what the vessel is "designed" to satisfy. That is for the designer/naval architect to note. Then the appropriate rules are imposed onto the vessel by the local statutory authority.

 

[Alik]

2AdHoc:
For recreational vessels there are no classes, there are design categories. These vessels such as Lagoon42 are not 'classed', they are 'certified'.

 

[RAraujo]

Ad Hoc,

Alik is referring to Design categories as per Recreational Craft Directive. You are referring to Passenger Ship Directive...

 

[Alik]

Ad Hoc,

Alik is referring to Design categories as per Recreational Craft Directive. You are referring to Passenger Ship Directive...

Yes, because TS refers Lagoon42 which is recreational craft...

 

[Ad Hoc]

Alik/RAraujo

Thanks for the catch.
I don't do recreational boats, hence thought it may have been a misnomer from the categories of EU vessels I have to comply with

Noted here:

Definitions of Boat Design Categories.

‘A’ OCEAN: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, and vessels largely self-sufficient.

‘B’ OFFSHORE: Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including, wind force 8 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 4 m may be experienced.

‘C’ INSHORE: Designed for voyages in coastal waters, large bays, estuaries, lakes and rivers where conditions up to, and including, wind force 6 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 2 m may be experienced.

‘D’ SHELTERED WATERS: Designed for voyages on sheltered coastal waters, small bays, small lakes, rivers and canals when conditions up to, and including, wind force 4 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 0.3 m may be experienced, with occasional waves of 0.5 m maximum height, for example from passing vessels.

Now I know too

 

[fcfc]

Alik/RAraujo

Noted here:

Definitions of Boat Design Categories.

Beware :

CE Category definition have changed :

A . A recreational craft given design category A is considered to be designed for winds that may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave height of 4 m and above but excluding abnormal conditions, such as storm, violent storm, hurricane, tornado and extreme sea conditions or rogue waves.

B. A recreational craft given design category B is considered to be designed for a wind force up to, and including, 8 and significant wave height up to, and including, 4 m.

C. A watercraft given design category C is considered to be designed for a wind force up to, and including, 6 and significant wave height up to, and including, 2 m.

D. A watercraft given design category D is considered to be designed for a wind force up to, and including, 4 and significant wave height up to, and including, 0,3 m, with occasional waves of 0,5 m maximum height


For instance category A no longer speaks of Ocean, and self sufficient boat. You can perfectly have a racing DAYBOAT which can sustain force 8, but completely unable to cross any ocean.

Beware also that category A has been lowered. (Storm = Force 10 beaufort, Violent Storm = Force 11 and Hurricane = Force 12) are EXCLUDED.

Boats are now sold like cars. ALL cars do meet basic requirement to be sold on the market (CE marking). But some cars are stronger, safer than others.

CE marking is not a classification society. It is just the BASIC LEGAL requirement to be sold on the EU market.
Crossing Ocean in some cat A boats might look like taking a subcompact car to drive 4 football players from New York to Los Angeles. Not legally forbidden, but not the best way to do.

 

[powerabout]

I've had worse days in the med than any ocean so thats a good change.
but still allows a Cat D vessel to go out on the med.

 

[SukiSolo]

All good fun, I remember being out at Pevensey Bay when it hit 60mph true wind speed in a racing 12 foot dinghy.... it survived. 128 starters - 70 finishers and not all beached back at the clubhouse shore. A Supertanker sheltered behind Beachy Head it was that powerful. Wonder what category those boats took... mind the sea was not that big as too shallow. Remarkably few gear failures too considering.

The categories are almost reasonable but I'd personally expect a category B to take at least Force 10. More than once I've been in an offshore boat in the English Channel with this type of strength. Maybe not big seas but they can be sharp.

Of course now we can look forward to the new British categories (post Brexit), over to you BoJo....

 

[powerabout]

I am amazed the EU uses Force for wind, not metric is it?
Force/Beaufort scale useless scale in my mind

 

[Sailcy]

Probably the best approach should be - choose the area, watch local businesses and spot their weaknesses, try to do better. As a result the design will appear. Then contact their local NA office for regulations and requirements

 

[Sailcy]

To design a boat suitable for any place in the world, considering climate/ weather conditions, customers' preferences as well as local rules seem to me unrealistic to be commercially successful.
Maybe it's just easier to buy an average affordable production boat and slightly alter it later listening to your clients' needs