EC design categories and passenger capacities

[Armada01]

I've been sailing recently on a Lagoon 42 cat and noticed the builder's plate mentioning several max loads and passenger capacities for the four EC Design categories (A,B,C,D).



I am looking for operating a charter yacht myself with two crew and would like to find the maximum passenger carrying capacity to spread crew costs over as many paying guests as possible, in order to keep prices low. I always assumed that 12 passengers (sleeping) aboard was the limit for small craft being sailed by a commercially endorsed yachtmaster.

However, this builder's plate gives the impression that more people are allowed on the boat, depending on the area the boat is sailed (ocean, offshore, coastal, inland waters).

Can anyone clarify? Are the passengers indicated on the builders plate "sleeping guests" or just day passengers? And would MCA have a restriction on maximum number of guests that overrules the EC certification regarding maximum passenger carrying capacity and load?

 

[taniwha]

This is a maximum RECOMMENDED number of passenger as a result of ISO 12217-2 calculation. It reflects in no way national maritime authorities requirements nor charter boats requirements which are different for each country and also dependent on the safety gear (liferaft, lifejacke, flares, etc)not included in the boat when sold.

 

[mudsailor]

Those capacities are part of the RCD (Recreational Craft Directive).....anything commercial is a different playbook as said above.

 

[TANSL]

Being a commercial boat, as mudsailor says, there is no a priori limitation on the number of passengers it can carry. You only have to demonstrate, through calculations countersigned by a subsequent inclining test, the boat is able to take them because it meets all the requirements of security and stability that apply.
Passing from pleasure boat onto a commercial boat totally changes the rules applicable to the boat. The CE mark, which surely meets the boat now, probably not be enough.

 

[Armada01]

Ok guys, tx for the feedback. I'll stick with the 12 passenger cap, as defined in:

"THE SAFETY OF SMALL VESSELS IN COMMERCIAL USE FOR SPORT OR PLEASURE OPERATING FROM A NOMINATED DEPARTURE POINT"

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/285647/red.pdf

 

[TANSL]

The text that you add to your thread is valid for the UK, or was valid. It contains some vagueness as how to calculate the scantlings and what requirements must be met. These generalities may be, perhaps, already completed by other regulations in force today. You should check what the rules that your boat should now comply. Contact the administration of your country.

 

[Armada01]

tx for your answer, Tansl.

But which factor drives my selection of a country to look for rules?

At this point, I have not selected a yard yet (could be anywhere, I want the best value), nor a flagstate (could be anywhere, since the yacht will be chartering worldwide.)

I am a Belgian national, but chances are fairly dim I will build the vessel in Belgium (almost no yards to choose from, plus high production prices) or charter it on it's 35 M long coast.

Doesn't a Europe wide certification exist that I can use in this preliminary phase, before I select a yard and flagstate? Reason for me looking for classification is to write a spec list, which in turn will be used to obtain quotes from yards, from which I will select one of them.

Starting by choosing a country would be the process turned upside down.

 

[TANSL]

I think it would be wise for you to consult with the Belgian administration rules applicable in that country, which will not be very different from those that apply in any other country of the European Community.
On the other hand, consider costs inherent to construction of the boat in a country that is not yours, boat transportation costs, inspection costs, in addition to possible language difficulties. The most suitable country will be the one in whose waters is going to sail the boat.

 

[vkstratis]

tx for your answer, Tansl.

But which factor drives my selection of a country to look for rules?

At this point, I have not selected a yard yet (could be anywhere, I want the best value), nor a flagstate (could be anywhere, since the yacht will be chartering worldwide.)

I am a Belgian national, but chances are fairly dim I will build the vessel in Belgium (almost no yards to choose from, plus high production prices) or charter it on it's 35 M long coast.

Doesn't a Europe wide certification exist that I can use in this preliminary phase, before I select a yard and flagstate? Reason for me looking for classification is to write a spec list, which in turn will be used to obtain quotes from yards, from which I will select one of them.

Starting by choosing a country would be the process turned upside down.

There is no single EU certification as with recreational boats, however if you survey and get a class certificate from a an IACS class society, I assume national flag authorities in EU will accept construction, stability specifications, safety, etc. There might be different equipment list though. Some non-IACS class societies may have the right to issue certificates for different flags within EU. You have to check that. Going with class will be expensive though, so it might be a good idea to check with the Flag authority of the country you expect to work with.

 

[Armada01]

I see, Class rules across (European) countries are quite similar, or at least similar enough so that going with one won't lead to a dead end street along the way when you decide to charter in a different area or build somewhere else.

Tx for the input!

 

[Alik]

There are no passengers on EC-certified recreational craft. According to definition, all people on board are 'crew'...

 

[fcfc]

There are no passengers on EC-certified recreational craft. According to definition, all people on board are 'crew'...

Regulations are a bit more complex than that.

I agree CE marking RCD apply to recreational boats. But some EU countries (at least France) recognize "commercially operated" "recreational craft".

"recreational craft" no more than 12 passengers onboard. On special conditions, can go up to 30. Sailboat, daylight, operated from single harbour ... (hence the meaning of D30 for the french Lagoon 42)

But the boat must technically comply CE marking for number of people (passenger + crew) on board. 12 passengers + 2 crew = you need CE marking for at least 14 for your intended design category.

Equipment and licences are specific for this kind of use (a mix between pure recreational and commercial passenger). Some constraints on boarding and fire equipment beyond pure CE requirement.

I do not know how other countries (even within EU) recognize this French specific regulation.

 

[TANSL]

I agree with every one of the statements made by Alik.
I think, a ship operated commercially, are applied some regulations other than those that apply to pleasure boats. In other words, pleasure boats in Europe, must obtain the CE mark, which is not enough for commercially operated pleasure boats. Each administration requires the latter, compliance with certain standards.

 

[vkstratis]

fcfc is righ. In some cases such as charter boats (bare-boats) are commercially used for the recreation of their passengers. In such a case the boats carry their CE mark as well as comply with Flag regulations for their type/size/exact purpose. Greece is another EU country that this is applied in some cases.

 

[vkstratis]

There are no passengers on EC-certified recreational craft. According to definition, all people on board are 'crew'...

in the case of commercially operated bare-boats, crew members are passengers. Not the RCD definition but applies in some cases, in some countries. If the boat is operated without commercial captain's licence, it is considered a bare-boat and must comply to CE plus flag regulations.