Easyway out

Discussion in 'Stability' started by evantica, Feb 17, 2010.

  1. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
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    gonzo Senior Member

    I am a surveyor and learned my trade building and working boats. I have spent most of my life building, repairing boats or at sea. The theorethical part is only necessary for extreme or novel designs. For a common boat all the standard rules work, there is no theory.
    Evantica: Seems to me that you are looking for reassurance and not honest opinions. It is not envy to tell you that building a boat and then asking for a designer to tell you what to do is foolish.
     
  2. gonzo
    Joined: Aug 2002
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    gonzo Senior Member

    I have built from dinghies to 45 knot 75 foot sporfishermen. My designing is mostly for parts and structural sections like engine stringers, rudder mounts and repairs of failed sections. You are naming designers and builders of great experience. If you already started building, what is any advice good for? You are looking for agreements and not criticism.
     
  3. evantica
    Joined: Feb 2010
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    evantica Senior Member

    No my freind I am not looking for agreement, only if right! and why should I take criticism, a specially from someone who's think he's something special??? I would appriciate some constructive info on those things I don't understand. But not anymore... as I mentioned I have contacted a "knowhow" how will do the "I don't" calculations so... no worries
    I will continue my "botbuilding" tread on this site and hopefully lern something along the way. (WIll probably not start a new tread, coz I know the answer is advance.,..sad but true!)
     
  4. evantica
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    evantica Senior Member

    we're kind of alike you and I??!!. I also come from boat repairs, put some engine in, and fix things when broken. been into this for many years... Also bought many in bad shape smaller sailors, fixed them up and sold them...
    But you're right... the only thing I needed (did!) a designer for is for this mentioned "calculation matter" but not anymore! When this -calc.-is done I'll get back to you and will accept an appologi!
     
  5. Obsession
    Joined: Jan 2010
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    Location: Chicago, IL, USA

    Obsession Junior Member

    I hesitated to bring this up yet again as it's been posted many times, but a few months ago or late last year there was a large ~80' steel motoryacht built by a pair of friends. They invested their savings and spent years building her. Then launch day came and friends and family gathered around. As she rolled down the ramp, the water rose over the swim platform and she began to list to one side. She was pulled back onto the hard and last I saw they were still welding new pods on to add buoyancy. After all that work, that had to be heartbreaking and crushing and I still feel bad for them and hope they get it floating and can be happy with her in the future in some role.

    In your case, you're starting from a splashed hull basically so the hull shape is based on something that works; you've modified it slightly and changed the material and structure. I suspect you'll overbuild rather than underbuild; the worst would be a structural failure, but I would suspect without calculation you'd error on the side of overbuilding so you'll end up with something slightly unnecessarily heavy, which is not the end of the world (how many recreational boats get much heavier with unnecessary gear, etc.)
    If it works out your intuition is right, we'll congratulate you and respect you for having the intuition to dream it and build it. A few people can do this. But don't expect us to share your risk :)

    I think it will probably be ok, if not perfectly ideal depending on how much work you do or have done figuring everything out. What's an acceptable % of ideal performance, ideal handling? Hard to say. Everything in life is a compromise, but it's hard to give the advice that "it will be good enough and probably safe enough too." Everything is a compromise, but we're used to calculating everything to the best of our ability in every aspect of life now. Taking a wild shot seems exhilarating to me and I still love to do it with skiffs where I can swim to shore ... keeps you young to try something seat of the pants every so often. But the cost is only a couple hundred dollars or less usually so if it doesn't handle the way I thought it would, I can start modifying or set it in the yard and not have any major regret.

    Anyway, glad you're getting some input from someone local who can measure and work up some plans, etc. (it's too much work to ask for for free on the forum to calculate everything for a given boat; if you want to ask about something specific once you have some measurements, weights, etc., be as specific as possible.) Will watch your other build thread to see how it goes as it will be interesting. Always enjoy seeing a boat being built. (especially when there's some excitement and risk involved :p)
     
  6. peter radclyffe
    Joined: Mar 2009
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    peter radclyffe Senior Member

    do you have the book colin archer, john leather &
    contact NUKISEN on this forum, he's your man
     
  7. evantica
    Joined: Feb 2010
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    evantica Senior Member

    Hi there! Obssesion now someone's talking understandable. Sorry about your friends "80' steel yacht" horrible story!
    My thought/point also= I'm using an allready beatiful boathull and "ad" some to it-yes! i know this "ad some" will do something to it!s behavior-but I've sailed the ol' wooden one and tried to compensite(?) it's-in my book-weakness. so coz. of this my sailing plac. will come a bit further to the "rear end" of the boat, wich was intened to! and -belive it or not- The boat designer sead the same. We will do the rest exact messure when the snow is gone, right now it's cold and boring! Peter: No I don't have the book will order it. I learned a lot about these beautiful boats when I was a member of the Norwigean SSCA for many yeras ago! I even had a plastic hull back then...
     

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  8. evantica
    Joined: Feb 2010
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    evantica Senior Member

    While I'm at it...Purhapse you understand me a bit better?! This was my most headaching project over the years...
    27 meters x 5-6 meters wide. a scooner with complete drawings histroy and everything, only pay a symbolic cost for her... on the way to the "Torr docka" for restoration she sunk in the mid sea outside Swe. (probably just as good, when thinking about it) this should be-then- my circumnavigator with paying crew..

    And he sead: "climb all the way up The Mount everest and almost die???"
    He answered: " I did it coz' I wanted to live "
    Nice and mine filisofi!
     

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  9. evantica
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    evantica Senior Member

    Have to... When she sank I've left the project! wanne make this clear!
     
  10. Wynand N
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    Im following this thread with interest and really did not want to get involved, but Im with Gonzo on this.

    Evantica, when one post and ask for info, expect to receive some, both from amateurs and pro's alike. That said, an amateur will think along your lines since you are an amateur builder yourself, a pro will give you sound advice based on facts and experience gained over years...

    Nevertheless, you questioned Gonzo's "ability" by asking his experience etc, and he gave you a short and polite reply on that for which I salute him under the circumstances and tone of your replies to him. I accept the fact that you are new to this forum and not aware of Gonzo's constructive contribution to this board for a long time now. Marshmat is also a backbone with his advice and contributions and also gave you sound advice.
    A little tip; if you look at the right top of a post, you will notice the reputation points, posts posted and time on board of poster and this is a clear indicator of the person posting.

    To your boat; You had put a few plates together to form a hull - no big deal (now that's the pro in me speaking;) ) and I commend you for that effort, more so for doing it without plans. But need advice and its difficult giving some based on a photo or two.
    Things you have to consider now are:

    1. Trim - some serious calculations needed for displacement, centres of gravities, buoyancy, floatation etc and moment to trim. Ballast need to be calculated and keel shape designed and placed correctly to have a well trimmed boat. This entail mass calculations and doing it by hand you will use Simpsons rule to get moments etc etc.

    2. Scantlings: How much where and loads needs to be calculated for mast strut / step, chainplate loadings etc etc. Did you know that when a boat is heeled, you can easily have weight of your boat pulling on the chainplates when the mast is in compression. For that you need careful calculations to take the loads on the deck. And where to put the mast and chainplates to have a balanced boat....
    And we can go on.

    Evantica, the way you are building your boat is like painting a brick wall before building them bricks.

    But all is not lost. Get a NA (boat designer) to do all the calculations as your life - and perhaps your family's - may just depend on it. Expect to face a considerable bill for that services because he needs to go to the boat to take some measurements etc.

    Since you are in a habit of asking credentials for advice, just check out my gallery for a small portion of steel boats I had built over the last 32 years.
     
  11. evantica
    Joined: Feb 2010
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    evantica Senior Member

    Ok Wynand! I will not take anything from someone like "Gonzo" or any of you! But I speak freeley and honest. About my boatbuilding tread, there's an expert consulted! All I asked was: If I ...and so on!!! and have nothing to do with my steelboat at all! so please see what I asked for, further back on this tread. And I don't give a .... If someone have been on this forum forever and ever, if I think he's wrong I will say so no matter what. So purhapse It's better for me to leave you?! And one more thing...I really question if it really is all that important if someone-with experiense-build a boat with common sense and take it to sea. Just look at the Colin Archers fantastic vessels. sure he was brilliant and I havn't seen any likeweise, safer, better sea going boat since then! And how could this be I wonder???
     
  12. hoytedow
    Joined: Sep 2009
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    hoytedow Wood Butcher

    Perhaps the problem is with difficulties in translating. That being said, as an amateur myself, I would defer to Gonzo and Wynand in view of their superior training and experience. I am sure they meant no insult. Only trying to save you expense and grief. :)
     
  13. Wynand N
    Joined: Oct 2004
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    Location: South Africa

    Wynand N Retired Steelboatbuilder

    Evantica,

    Don't ask for opinions or advice if you cannot take criticism. Criticism can be constructive or otherwise, the choice is yours.

    Colin Archer and similar type of boats are indeed sea worthy but heavy and slow. Again, all those boats you so love were designed by a knowledgeable boat designer and built from plans, period.
    That said, many very modern and light displacement boats are just as seaworthy and in many cases better.....

    Getting back to your question and I quote "I really question if it really is all that important if someone-with experiense-build a boat with common sense and take it to sea."

    The answer were given to you quite early in this thread but it seems that as Gonzo said, you need reassurances and you will rant on, annoying posters with your answers if it is not what you want to hear, and this will carry on until to get the answers YOU want to hear. Sorry mate, this will not happen from people in the know.

    Again, here is Marshmat's answer to your question and I quote

    Im not going into a pissing contest with you and its pointless giving you sound advice. You know the saying about arguing with a fool:?:

    Over and out.
     
  14. evantica
    Joined: Feb 2010
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    evantica Senior Member

    Wynand. We can leave the childish arguing out of it! Let's speak with open mind. You sead: "That said, many very modern and light displacement boats are just as seaworthy and in many cases better" Wichone I ask? more seaworthy? Like to hear your thinking here please! A light deplac. boat will, if not over crowded Tiered and "wore" the crew down in a long period storm! period! This is not "better" in a safety matter! don't say you can outran an ocean storm, as an argument. If so you'll have to run "along" with the storm and = longer time!
     

  15. evantica
    Joined: Feb 2010
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    evantica Senior Member

    One more! I Think the onlything better nower days is the "EPIRB" GPS and that kind of instrument = That way they're found when in trouble!( I do belive theres more incidents now then back then! (Some statistics on this?) The boats. I belive its worse. Lighter, faster, more sail m2. Is this really what you fancy and defend so much? incredible I say!
    Out of my reach" Going fast on sailboat"??? Dummest thing ever! ( I think. you're free to think otherwise)
     
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