Dyes in Antifreez

Discussion in 'Wooden Boat Building and Restoration' started by Wood Boat, Mar 28, 2007.

  1. Wood Boat
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    Wood Boat Junior Member

    The antiboil/freeze that is available here is dyed green. Does this have any affect of staining wood or paint when applying home made up rot killer?
     
  2. longliner45
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    longliner45 Senior Member

    hey wood , if your messing with home made stuff like this ,,,and dont know ,maybe it would be in your best interest to leave it alone, not trying to be cute ,,but chemicals are really dangerous,,,,,,be carefull ,,longliner
     
  3. Wood Boat
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    Wood Boat Junior Member

    Thanx longliner yes I agree these chemicals are quite toxic to both pland and animal and therefore require some care. There is however a large amount of available data on home made cost effective rot preventitave solutions made from glycol, borax and boric acid. There is however very little information on these products/recipies that says anything about colour staining. I do belive that in one of these articles I read that the solution does not stain but I cant be sure Im therefore just after some firsthand clarifaction.
    Cheers Al
     
  4. longliner45
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    longliner45 Senior Member

    remember you get one chance at life ,,,dont believe everything you read on line,longliner
     
  5. charmc
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    charmc Senior Member

    The dye is there as a warning, to easily distinguish glycol and its toxicity. Non-dyed glycol may be available, but, like freon and other flurocarbons, getting the undyed stuff may require a license or permit, which comes after training in how to handle it. Longliner's warning is a good one. I'd do some more research before using any toxic materials.
     
  6. Wood Boat
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    Wood Boat Junior Member

    I appreciate both of your concerns. I look at it from the point of veiw that no mater what route I chose weather it be an off the shelf rot killer or home made they are both toxic. Therefore it makes sense to save $$$ and manufacture my own from readly available products. I have done some more reasearch today after my last post and have found evidence that the dye wont affect paint of discolour the wood
    Cheers Al
     
  7. Wood Boat
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    Wood Boat Junior Member

    I forgot to add that the undyed glycol does require a licence and is also nearly 3 times the price. I know wich way I'll be going. I will endeavour to post some pics of the process as I do it.
     
  8. gonzo
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    gonzo Senior Member

    Glycol is very hygroscopic. Any paint will have adhesion problems. When wood gets wet with antifreeze it needs to be rinsed and dried before painting.
     
  9. byankee
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    byankee Junior Member

    There is an article by Richard Jagels in WoodenBoat magazine # 195 (current issue) about the use of glycol as a rot preventer in wood. I don't have the article here in front of me but I recall that he concluded that Ethylene glycol (Antifreeze) won't do any good. It quickly leaches out of the wood, thus eliminating any anti-rot properties and will contaminate any body of water (i.e. your bilge or the water your boat sits in). It's also highly toxic when ingested and its sweet smell and taste appeals to animals and children. It's only virtue - if you can call it that - is that it's cheap. Since it doesn't work for even medium term rot protection, never mind long term, and because of its hazards, there's really no good reason to use it.

    What you want is POLY ethylene gylycol (PEG 1000) which stays in the wood thus giving you the rot protection you want while being a much more benign substance to the environment, your neighbors pets and their kids. I have read that paint won't adhere well to PEG treated wood, but I cannot recall if Jagels addresses that issue.

    In any case, they guy knows his stuff so it would be worth reading the article before you do anything.
     
  10. roseandpaul
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    roseandpaul Junior Member

    Please let us know how you go getting PEG, making up the recipe and applying the mixture. We have been considering going down the same path and would appreciate your feed back.

    roseandpaul
     
  11. byankee
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    byankee Junior Member

    roseandpaul -

    I have no experience with the stuff. I was simply reporting what the article said and what I have heard from a couple of folks who have used both.

    Do an internet search on PEG 1000 and you'll find some references that you might find useful
     
  12. TerryKing
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    TerryKing On The Water SOON

    Ethylene Glycol Works For Me!!

    There is a LOT of disagreement on this subject. The US Navy does use a combination of Ethlyene Glycol and Borate, and there are two commercial suppliers of this for boats. The Ethylene Glycol-Borate is dual-acting and the borate part is long-lasting.
    http://www.nisuscorp.com/boracare.html is a commercial Ethylene Glycol-Borate product.

    Work has been done on the use of these materials on boats and the effect on Epoxy. See:
    http://www.maritime.org/conf/conf-reynolds-mat2.htm
    which also talks about these Ethlyene Glycol and Borate solutions as "low toxicity wood preservatives".

    Take a look at:
    http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/davecarnell/
    and go to Chemotherapy for Rot.

    I THINK that PEG is not very toxic, and not very effective on rot.

    I KNOW from 15 tears of experience with my 29 year old boat that Ethylene Glycol (Commercial Antifreeze) applied according to Carnell's information has TOTALLY stopped any rot in the boat, and there was considerable rot to start, with little fungus things growing every Spring.

    I KNOW that Ethlyene Glycol, carefully applied to the junction of my home deck and siding has totally stopped the fungus and rot that was starting there.

    Now, read Carnell, and you will see that he agrees that Ethylene Glycol is hygroscopic and will have to be renewed about once a year. (I used to use the boat product "PentaChlor".. Remember that?? PCP!! It is VERY long-lasting and that's why it is outlawed in most cases.) After it was outlawed, and I started to get Rot, I got on to the Ethylene Glycol. Personally I hit the obvious cracks and frame-to-plywood planking seams twice a year, once at layup, after a good cleaning, and again in the Spring (Vermont).

    I have always made sure there was NO liquid glycol left in my boat before I left a session, and no animals have ever been hurt. A few paper towels. Use plastic gloves.

    Carnell has also experimented on glycol relative to paint and Epoxy..

    Works For Me, and for lots of other people... (See my Granddaughter playing on the roof of that Old Boat? Her Dad and I built that boat when he was in High School :) )
     
  13. byankee
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    byankee Junior Member

    I'm not trying to be argumentative. as I said, I have no direct experience with PEG. I do have someunderstadning of how antifreeze works as a rot killer, though which prompts this question:

    I wonder if the sucess you've had with it is a result of its initial toxicity rather than any long term effect? In other words, you apply the stuff, it kills all of the existing rot and mold spores present (no one disputes that it will do that), so no rot...but for how long? If you did not renew it every year, would the protective effect dimminish over time and thereby allow any new rot and mold spores that land on the wood to grow?

    The impression I got from the Jagels article was that unlike antifreeze, PEG has a long term toxicity to rot that does not need to be renewed, so that it not only kills off any existing spores but it also provides long term protection against subsequent infection. I suppose that if you're willing and able to do the annual reapplication of the antifreeze, the point is moot.

    Anyway, as i said, I'm just wondering out loud here and not trying to be argumentative. Read the article and these posts and make up you own minds.
     
  14. TerryKing
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    TerryKing On The Water SOON

    Byankee, I'd be happy to learn more.. Can you point to the article? ((OK, I understand it's not online.)) Maybe someone can quote the most relevant points...

    Maybe PEG + Borate would be the Rot Killer App!
     

  15. byankee
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    byankee Junior Member

    It's not available on line. It's in the March/April 2007 edition of WoodenBoat magazine (#195)
     
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